Posted on 04/19/2008 7:43:29 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
Recently, I spoke to a group of non-Utahns. It was clear from the beginning that none of them knew much about Mormons other than we were possibly - how to put this nicely? - nuts.
These were not stupid people. In fact, I admit to being the dumbest person in the room. They were in Salt Lake for a university-level conference. They probably all had doctorates in stuff more or less useful.
After my gab, I took polite questions about Mormonism, namely polygamy, the temple, plural marriage, underwear, extra wives and some more about polygamy.
One lady wanted to know when "regular" Mormons like me stopped practicing polygamy. I said we never did. She said she was pretty sure that we had because she read about it in Newsweek.
I explained that Mormons like me no longer needed to take plural wives to live polygamy, that there were enough disparate personalities in one average woman to satisfy the Lord on the matter.
Judging from the looks, about half the room believed me. The rest understood immediately that not only was I not a fundamentalist Mormon, but not their idea of a "regular" Mormon either. How many kinds were there?
A lot, but you wouldn't know it from the way people talk about us these days. Currently, the LDS Church is working hard to keep the world from confusing the FLDS in Texas with the LDS in Utah.
Truthfully, there are all sorts of LDS groups, or Mormon types. Here are some of the ones I know about:
* LDS: Latter-day Saints, or your "regular" Mormons.
* RLDS: Reorganized Mormons, or Mormons who didn't go to Utah with Brigham Young when the church was run out of Illinois.
* FLDS: Fundamentalist LDS. The cloistered men and oddly coiffed women you're seeing on television down in Texas these days.
* GLDS: Gay Mormons. Not only are some Mormons gay, some gays want to be Mormon. They just don't like the marginalizing that comes with the territory.
* XLDS: Ex-Mormons, many of whom still congregate and talk about church, sometimes way more than they did when they were Mormons.
* BLDS: Black or African-American LDS. Not all Mormons are white. There are also LLDS (Latino Mormons), NALDS (Native American Mormons), OLDS (Oriental Mormons), and, eventually, MLDS (Martian Mormons).
* JLDS: Jack Mormons, or Mormons who don't practice the faith, most noticeably Mormons who smoke and drink.
* NLDS: Nazi Mormons, the overly rigid, lock-step, black-and-white wearers and thinkers who give the rest of the world a Mormon stereotype to work with.
* ALDS: Atheist Mormons, or Mormons who still maintain a social connection with the church but don't believe in God or gold books.
* *LDS: Mormons who figure it's none of your business what kind of Mormon they are.
[Wow. What wonderful historical sources.]
My sources sure stand up to the crazy / bizarre readings backing your worldview which were translated through a peepstone stuck in some charlatan’s hat. I tell you what, in the annals of the bizarre, I’d sure put that peepstone stuff, and the hooey about Gold tablets delivered by some dead Indian/Jew, right near the top of “impeached sources not to be trusted”, but what do I know compared to you.
Harriet Beecher Stowe, the Little Gal who started the Civil War, helped back “Tell It All”, that’s a gal a whole lot more respectable than you.
{yawn}
[Let me know if you ever find something that can convince somebody besides a stone cold hater such as you.]
I think I’m feeling some pretty crimson hate coming from you as well. But you know what, at least I don’t have to defend a religion started by child molesters, so my temples can’t be as ready to burst as yours are.
Besides, I’ve already convinced a lot of people, you are the odd man out.
CELESTIAL MARRIAGE:
A REVELATION ON THE PATRIARCHAL ORDER OF MATRIMONY, OR
PLURALITY OF WIVES.
Given to Joseph Smith, the Seer, in Nauvoo, July I2th, I843.
I. Verily, thus saith the Lord, unto you, my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand, to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; as also Moses, David, and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines: Behold! and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter: Therefore prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same; for behold! I reveal unto you a new and everlasting covenant, and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant, and be permitted to enter into my glory; for all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as was instituted from before the foundations of the world: and as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof, must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.
2. And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made or entered into, and sealed, by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is annointed both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment, through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power, (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time; on whom this power and the keys of the priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force, in and after the resurrection from the dead: for all contracts that are not made unto this end, have an end when men are dead.
* * * * * * * * *
4. Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me, nor by my word; and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world, and she with him, their covenant and marriage is not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world; therefore, when they are out of the world, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministeriing servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory; for these angels did not abide my law, therefore they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity, and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God for ever and ever.
5. And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time, and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me, or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid, neither of force, when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world, it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory, for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.
6. And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power, and the keys of this priesthood, and it shall be said unto them, Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths - then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood; and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity, and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds for ever and ever.
7. Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.
* * * * * * * * *
9. Verily, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder, wherein they shed innocent blood - yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation, but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan, unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.
I0. The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in this world, nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder, wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in no wise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.
* * * * * * * * *
I3. God commanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham, to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law, and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises. Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily, I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, commanded it. Abraham was commanded to offer his son Isaac; nevertheless, it was written, Thou shalt not kill. Abraham, however, did not refuse, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
I4. Abraham received concubines, and they bare him children, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law: as Isaac also, and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones; and are not angels, but are gods. David also received many wives and concubines, as also Solomon, and Moses my servant; as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin, save in those things which they received not of me.
I5. David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me, save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and therefore, he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world; for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.
I6. I am the Lord thy God, and I gave unto thee, my servant Joseph, an appointment, and restore all things;......... I have conferred upon you the keys and power of the Priesthood, wherein I restore all things, and make known unto you all things, in due time.
I7. And verily, verily I say unto you, that whatsoever you seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever you bind on earth, in my name, and by my word, saith the Lord, it shall be eternally bound in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you remit on earth shall be remitted eternally in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you retain on earth shall be retained in heaven.
I8. And again, verily I say, whomsoever you bless I will bless, and whomsoever you curse I will curse, saith the Lord; for I, the Lord, am thy God.
I9. And again, verily I say unto you, my servant Joseph, that whatsoever you give on earth, and to whomsoever you give any one on earth, by my word, and according to my law, it shall be visited with blessings.
* * * * * * * * *
20. Verily I say unto you, a commandment I give unto mine handmaid Emma Smith your wife.... let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God!.... I give unto my servant Joseph, that he shall be made ruler over many things, for he hath been faithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.
2I. And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment, she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law; but if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him, and multiply him, and give unto him a hundred fold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds. And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid forgive my servant Joseph his trespasses, and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to rejoice.
24. And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood: If any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent; and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery, for they are given him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him, and to none else; and if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him; and they are given unto him - therefore is he justified. But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world; and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that He may be glorified.
25. And again, verily, verily I say unto you, if any man have a wife who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things; then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law. Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him, according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor, and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law, when I commanded Abraham to take Hagar to wife. And now, as pertaining to this law: Verily, verily I say unto you, I will reveal more unto you, hereafter; therefore, let this suffice for the present. Behold, I am Alpha and Omega. Amen.
(The Millennial Star - a Mormon paper published in Liverpool January, 1853)
Did you find that in “Tell It All”? Quite a shocker, no?
You have convinced people that FastCoyote is psychotic.
Yes, I am slowly getting through it
It’s mind blowing...
Is the other book online too ???
Wife Number 19 is an OLD book too ???
Imagine the excuses the false prophet Joseph Smith could write for his classmates if he was 14 in 2008...
No more need for “The dog ate my homework”
Joseph would be the most popular boy in school...
LOL
“Wife Number 19 is an OLD book too ???”
Both were written around 1875. Ann’s family was with them from the start. Stenthouse’s “Tell It All” was from a woman whose English family got sucked in. The great thing is that they corroborate each other AND they tell essentially the same kind of story as at Eldorado.
Please regard this question as an opportunity for a correction or a good answer from you, not hostility from me:
I’ve never understood the reversal of Mormons on polygamy. Was Smith wrong about the issue, misunderstanding God’s will? Or was there something peculiar about the 1850s through the 1880s that made polygamy appropriate then, but not now?
I’ll throw these points out so you can address them right away, rather than turning this into a debate:
1. Do Mormons understand how deeply this creeps non-Mormon Christians out? Sure, it’s more responsible that promiscuity, which is very common, but often even promiscuous “settle down,” and while they may not understand how their promiscuity was a betrayal of their once-future spouse, the notion of their spouse having sex with another person within the coventant of marriage is sickening. That it be religious sanctioned is positively revolting.
2. Whether or not polygamy is currently practiced, isn’t it condoned in Mormon scripture? Sure, David and Solomon were polygamous, and Abraham had relations with his handmaiden... but that’s not read among us Catholics as condoning the practice. David’s sexual appetites led him to murder; Solomon’s led to the loss of his empire; even Abraham’s attempt at a pious secondary sexual relationship ended up in marital strife, the exile of an innocent, and the creation of a nation consumed with hatred for Israel. My sense is that the more spiritual Catholics are, the more they would find bringing another sex partner into their marriage as disgusting, but Mormonism comes across as having compromised that ideal for acceptance into “polite society.”
Again, I do not mean to make these questions into assertions. I hope any third party will recognize I am acknowledging my ignorance in such matters.
You know you can reply to several people at once, rather than reposting the same information?
>> • The term “Mormon” is correctly used to apply ONLY to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. “Mormon” should never be used to describe polygamous sects. <<
Should Joe Smith or Brigham Young be called “Mormon”?
>> • Latter-day Saints are offended when elementary mistakes are made in the news media or when printed or posted photographs fail to make the distinction between the Church and polygamous groups. <<
... which is why I hope you will answer my previous post.
>> * ALDS: Atheist Mormons, or Mormons who still maintain a social connection with the church but don’t believe in God or gold books. <<
No, ALDS are Mormons who root for the Yankees, until NY goes out in the first round of the playoffs.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.