There are all sorts of LDS groups

Salt Lake Tribune ^ | 04/18/2008 | Robert Kirby

[Alex Murphy]

Recently, I spoke to a group of non-Utahns. It was clear from the beginning that none of them knew much about Mormons other than we were possibly - how to put this nicely? - nuts.

These were not stupid people. In fact, I admit to being the dumbest person in the room. They were in Salt Lake for a university-level conference. They probably all had doctorates in stuff more or less useful.

After my gab, I took polite questions about Mormonism, namely polygamy, the temple, plural marriage, underwear, extra wives and some more about polygamy.

One lady wanted to know when "regular" Mormons like me stopped practicing polygamy. I said we never did. She said she was pretty sure that we had because she read about it in Newsweek.

I explained that Mormons like me no longer needed to take plural wives to live polygamy, that there were enough disparate personalities in one average woman to satisfy the Lord on the matter.

Judging from the looks, about half the room believed me. The rest understood immediately that not only was I not a fundamentalist Mormon, but not their idea of a "regular" Mormon either. How many kinds were there?

A lot, but you wouldn't know it from the way people talk about us these days. Currently, the LDS Church is working hard to keep the world from confusing the FLDS in Texas with the LDS in Utah.

Truthfully, there are all sorts of LDS groups, or Mormon types. Here are some of the ones I know about:

* LDS: Latter-day Saints, or your "regular" Mormons.

* RLDS: Reorganized Mormons, or Mormons who didn't go to Utah with Brigham Young when the church was run out of Illinois.

* FLDS: Fundamentalist LDS. The cloistered men and oddly coiffed women you're seeing on television down in Texas these days.

* GLDS: Gay Mormons. Not only are some Mormons gay, some gays want to be Mormon. They just don't like the marginalizing that comes with the territory.

* XLDS: Ex-Mormons, many of whom still congregate and talk about church, sometimes way more than they did when they were Mormons.

* BLDS: Black or African-American LDS. Not all Mormons are white. There are also LLDS (Latino Mormons), NALDS (Native American Mormons), OLDS (Oriental Mormons), and, eventually, MLDS (Martian Mormons).

* JLDS: Jack Mormons, or Mormons who don't practice the faith, most noticeably Mormons who smoke and drink.

* NLDS: Nazi Mormons, the overly rigid, lock-step, black-and-white wearers and thinkers who give the rest of the world a Mormon stereotype to work with.

* ALDS: Atheist Mormons, or Mormons who still maintain a social connection with the church but don't believe in God or gold books.

* *LDS: Mormons who figure it's none of your business what kind of Mormon they are.

[Alex Murphy]

One lady wanted to know when "regular" Mormons like me stopped practicing polygamy. I said we never did. She said she was pretty sure that we had because she read about it in Newsweek.

I explained that Mormons like me no longer needed to take plural wives to live polygamy, that there were enough disparate personalities in one average woman to satisfy the Lord on the matter.

[FastCoyote]

I was going to quote the same thing. Obviously a bald faced lie.

[Old Mountain man]

From the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints:

• The Church reiterated on 6 April that it has no affiliation whatever with the Texas-based sect that has been subject to investigation by state law enforcement officers and child protective services in recent days, and whose leader, Warren Jeffs, was jailed in 2006.
• The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints discontinued polygamy officially in 1890. Some people left the Church to continue the practice of polygamy, or were excommunicated because they refused to give up the practice. Some of their descendants are found in polygamous communities today in various parts of the United States and Canada, but especially in the West. They are not members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
• [The late] Church President Gordon B. Hinckley stated the following about polygamy in the Church’s October 1998 general conference: “I wish to state categorically that this Church has nothing whatever to do with those practicing polygamy. They are not members of this Church. Most of them have never been members … If any of our members are found to be practicing plural marriage, they are excommunicated, the most serious penalty the Church can impose. Not only are those so involved in direct violation of the civil law, they are in violation of the law of this Church.”
• Some news reports, especially those outside the U.S., still fail to draw clear distinctions between Mormons and polygamous sects whenever stories arise about polygamy in the Intermountain West.
• The term “Mormon” is correctly used to apply ONLY to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. “Mormon” should never be used to describe polygamous sects.
• Latter-day Saints are offended when elementary mistakes are made in the news media or when printed or posted photographs fail to make the distinction between the Church and polygamous groups.
• Elder [M. Russell] Ballard [of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles] stated: “You would think that after over 100 years, media organizations would understand the difference. You can’t blame the public for being confused when some of those reporting on these stories keep getting them wrong.”
• There could not be two groups of people more different. Mormons do not look like members of the polygamous group in Texas — they do not dress like them, worship like them, or believe the same things.
• The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a global faith with 13 million members worldwide. We teach the gospel in 90 languages. There are members of our faith in every country. We are the 4th largest denomination in the U.S. We have donated over $1 billion in humanitarian aid worldwide. We operate Brigham Young University. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints could not be more different than these small, secretive, polygamous societies.

[FastCoyote]

I’m going to be civil in my reply.

[Church President Gordon B. Hinckley stated the following about polygamy in the Church’s October 1998 general conference: “I wish to state categorically that this Church has nothing whatever to do with those practicing polygamy.” ]

That would all be fine, except Celestial marriage IS part of your church doctrine, and Celestial marriage IS polygamous (else how do you populate all those worlds with one god?

[They are not members of this Church. Most of them have never been members …]

So, you are saying that Mormons are Christians because they believe in Christ but FLDS are not Mormon even though they believe in Joseph Smith and follow more Mormon doctrine than Mormons follow Christian doctrine? My head hurts.

[If any of our members are found to be practicing plural marriage, they are excommunicated, the most serious penalty the Church can impose. Not only are those so involved in direct violation of the civil law, they are in violation of the law of this Church.”]

And we aplaud your church for it. But that isn’t the only problem going on, it’s also the heavy handed brainwashing and shunning that are used by the FLDS to control their victims, which also exists in various forms in the LDS and are a vestige of Brigham Young’s polygamy and blood atonement practices. In fact, you yourself are a heavy handed enforcer, using the same tactics a Warren Jeffs uses to deride opponents and call them “evil”.

[• Some news reports, especially those outside the U.S., still fail to draw clear distinctions between Mormons and polygamous sects whenever stories arise about polygamy in the Intermountain West.]

Well, considering you still worship Joseph Smith who started the whole polygamy thingy (”God will strike me dead if you don’t marry me”), I think the confusion is understandable.

[• The term “Mormon” is correctly used to apply ONLY to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. “Mormon” should never be used to describe polygamous sects.]

Now that is mighty delightsome of you guys. Yet, if any of us question your being a distant sect of Christianity not deserving of the name, the same rules no longer seem to apply and the Bigot word is used. My how convenient Quemosabe.

[• Latter-day Saints are offended when elementary mistakes are made in the news media or when printed or posted photographs fail to make the distinction between the Church and polygamous groups.]

Christians are offended when you fail to make distinctions between your plural gods and Christianity. I think you will survive.

[• Elder [M. Russell] Ballard [of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles] stated: “You would think that after over 100 years, media organizations would understand the difference. You can’t blame the public for being confused when some of those reporting on these stories keep getting them wrong.”]

Like I believe anything from a self-proclaimed Apostle.

[• There could not be two groups of people more different. ]

Oh yeah? How about the difference between Mormons and Satanists, could that be more different? I think so. Consequently that is a deceptive premise.

[Mormons do not look like members of the polygamous group in Texas — they do not dress like them, worship like them, or believe the same things.]

Oh come now, they are conguent is soooo many ways.

[Delta 21]

Awww! Come on, man. This is the 21st century. We can have it as many different ways as we want it.

Yeah, My head hurts too when ever I try to figure out all the worldliness we are exposed to.

[Tammy8]

Some Mormons never practiced polygamy. She might be quite right that her branch didn’t. Polygamy was an issue that split the LDS early on. Many that went by wagon train to Utah split away and went on to Oregon and other places because they did not believe in polygamy. It is interesting- because at that time the non-polygamists were the smaller splinter group.

[ears_to_hear]

Actually , one of the reasons for so many “regular” LDS “looking the other way” or quieting incidents like the man that talked the little Smart girl to become one of his wives (http://www.rickross.com/reference/smart/smart8.html) is because they still believe in polygamy.

Remember there was never a trial of that man, because the “principle” and Joseph Smith would have been a part of the defense. Mormons did not want to air that particular deviance.So, like in the Soviet, he was quietly led to a mental institution.. end of story.

My money is on that little miss Smart was granted a LDS “spiritual divorce” from the man..so she would not be one of his “eternal” wives.

The LDS never repudiated or ended “the principle” (polygamy ) they have simply “SUSPENDED” it.

They believe that as ‘gods” the men will all have many wives, so how can they prosecute someone from doing what their god does??

[Old Mountain man]

In response to your typically deceptive posting:

From the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints:

• The Church reiterated on 6 April that it has no affiliation whatever with the Texas-based sect that has been subject to investigation by state law enforcement officers and child protective services in recent days, and whose leader, Warren Jeffs, was jailed in 2006.
• The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints discontinued polygamy officially in 1890. Some people left the Church to continue the practice of polygamy, or were excommunicated because they refused to give up the practice. Some of their descendants are found in polygamous communities today in various parts of the United States and Canada, but especially in the West. They are not members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
• [The late] Church President Gordon B. Hinckley stated the following about polygamy in the Church’s October 1998 general conference: “I wish to state categorically that this Church has nothing whatever to do with those practicing polygamy. They are not members of this Church. Most of them have never been members … If any of our members are found to be practicing plural marriage, they are excommunicated, the most serious penalty the Church can impose. Not only are those so involved in direct violation of the civil law, they are in violation of the law of this Church.”
• Some news reports, especially those outside the U.S., still fail to draw clear distinctions between Mormons and polygamous sects whenever stories arise about polygamy in the Intermountain West.
• The term “Mormon” is correctly used to apply ONLY to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. “Mormon” should never be used to describe polygamous sects.
• Latter-day Saints are offended when elementary mistakes are made in the news media or when printed or posted photographs fail to make the distinction between the Church and polygamous groups.
• Elder [M. Russell] Ballard [of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles] stated: “You would think that after over 100 years, media organizations would understand the difference. You can’t blame the public for being confused when some of those reporting on these stories keep getting them wrong.”
• There could not be two groups of people more different. Mormons do not look like members of the polygamous group in Texas — they do not dress like them, worship like them, or believe the same things.
• The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a global faith with 13 million members worldwide. We teach the gospel in 90 languages. There are members of our faith in every country. We are the 4th largest denomination in the U.S. We have donated over $1 billion in humanitarian aid worldwide. We operate Brigham Young University. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints could not be more different than these small, secretive, polygamous societies.

[FastCoyote]

[Some Mormons never practiced polygamy. She might be quite right that her branch didn’t. Polygamy was an issue that split the LDS early on. Many that went by wagon train to Utah split away and went on to Oregon and other places because they did not believe in polygamy. It is interesting- because at that time the non-polygamists were the smaller splinter group.]

Which doesn’t change the fact that Brigham Young led the “smaller splinter group”, one of the infallible founding church fathers. Please read Ann Young’s book, “Wife No. 19”, it is Warren Jeffs all over. Much less Joseph Smith himself is the crackpot who started it all in the first place. Apologists never quit.

On such a foundation of sand is based the entire Mormon Church.

[greyfoxx39]

Ping

[FastCoyote]

So, your reply is to repeat the same baloney? Weak.

Are you going to deny Celestial marriage is polygamous? Are you going to deny that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young started it? Are you going to deny that Mormonism (no matter what sect), is based on what must be the infallibility of Joseph Smith (else he is just a charlatan)?

Go ahead, pretend there is no link whatsoever between the FLDS and LDS, hide your head in the sand like usual. You aren’t even man enough to admit that Joseph Smith’s teachings led directly to child molestation and the pimping of daughters. Heber Kimbal anyone?

[fishtank]

I make a motion that calls OMM to answer FC’s questions.

Do I have a second to that motion?

[ears_to_hear]

• The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints discontinued polygamy officially in 1890. Some people left the Church to continue the practice of polygamy, or were excommunicated because they refused to give up the practice. Some of their descendants are found in polygamous communities today in various parts of the United States and Canada, but especially in the West. They are not members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The LDS suspended polygamy in order to have statehood, it did not repudiate it. There are people living the "principle" amidst the Utah LDS. No one turns them in, because they still believe it is a spiritual law

• There could not be two groups of people more different. Mormons do not look like members of the polygamous group in Texas — they do not dress like them,

You wear the same magic underwear..

worship like them,

You, like them have a temple closed to non Mormons, you have basically the same "spiritual ordinances" and practice the same dietary principles.

or believe the same things.

You both believe that god was once a man and that an observant mormon can also achieve godhood.

The difference is they do not think YOU can achieve godhood because you do not practice polygamy ( both Smith and Young believed and taught that polygamy was necessary for exaltation ). To them it seems you guys are the ones that sold your birthright for as bowl of porridge (citizenship)

[Zakeet]

One point that seems lost in this and related posts:

At one time the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-Day Saints argued polygamy as practiced by the FLDS cult was essential to salvation.

For example, citing the opinion of the United States Supreme Court in the case of Reynolds v. United States case (98 U.S. 145), George Reynolds, Brigham Young's personal secretary, plead as follows:

On the trial, the plaintiff in error, the accused, proved that at the time of his alleged second marriage he was, and for many years before had been, a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, commonly called the Mormon Church, and a believer in its doctrines; that it was an accepted doctrine of that church "that it was the duty of male members of said church, circumstances permitting, to practise polygamy; . . . that this duty was enjoined by different books which the members of said church believed to be to divine origin, and among others the Holy Bible, and also that the members of the church believed that the practice of polygamy was directly enjoined upon the male members thereof by the Almighty God, in a revelation to Joseph Smith, the founder and prophet of said church; that the failing or refusing to practise polygamy by such male members of said church, when circumstances would admit, would be punished, and that the penalty for such failure and refusal would be damnation in the life to come." He also proved "that he had received permission from the recognized authorities in said church to enter into polygamous marriage; . . . that Daniel H. Wells, one having authority in said church to perform the marriage ceremony, married the said defendant on or about the time the crime is alleged to have been committed, to some woman by the name of Schofield, and that such marriage ceremony was performed under and pursuant to the doctrines of said church."

It should also be noted the LDS Church steadfastly resisted all attempts to abandon the Principal (of polygamy) until the church was disbanded as a criminal organization under the Edmunds-Tucker Act of 1887 and their property ordered seized.

Furthermore, many in the LDS Church ignored President Woodruff's instructions to abandon polygamy until the Church was embarrassed in the Smoot Hearings (1904-07), at which time two members of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles (among others) were expelled from the brotherhood by a Second Manifesto for increasing their number of polygamous wives.

Finally, it should be noted every LDS Church President openly practiced polygamy for over 120 years beginning with Joseph Smith in 1833 [when he "married" Fannie Alger after impregnating the 16-year old] and continuing through 1945 and Heber Grant (above).

In light of the above, I find attempts by current LDS members to distance themselves from their FLDS cousins on the grounds polygamy is morally and/or spiritually and/or doctrinally wrong both amusing and disingenuous.

[Utah Binger]

I said we never did

I saw that in the paper this morning. My first thought was, come on Kirby, try to be a bit more honest. Then again, we can be certain to hear the same BS from Lonsberry and Beck.

[Colofornian]

I make a motion that calls OMM to answer FC’s questions. Do I have a second to that motion?

I second it! (Remember, OMM, Lds have taught that Joseph Smith needs to give his consent for you to enter into the celestial kingdom. How's he going to take this moment in time if you denied the reality of all his wives in celestialdom?)

[colorcountry]

NALDS (Native American Mormons

Back a couple of years ago, that would have been LLDS (Lamanite Mormons)

Oopsie!

[Colofornian]

Christians are offended when you fail to make distinctions between your plural gods and Christianity. I think you will survive.

(LOL)

That would all be fine, except Celestial marriage IS part of your church doctrine, and Celestial marriage IS polygamous (else how do you populate all those worlds with one god?

I think, FC, you've hit on one of the most least discussed aspects of 19th century Mormonism that people least understand.

It's the fact that a key reason LDS were told to practice polygamy--that it was after the order (as in pattern) of how marriage was practiced in the Celestial Kingdom. Now that just doesn't mean how folks who died practiced it, but rather that the Mormon god himself was an alleged polygamist.

Therefore, how could mormon folk expect to...

(a)...be created exactly in the mormon god's image???

(b)...become a god associate in the council of gods???
(c)...& live in the celestial kingdom???
...if they didn't have wives like the Mormon god did???

So, you are saying that Mormons are Christians because they believe in Christ but FLDS are not Mormon even though they believe in Joseph Smith and follow more Mormon doctrine than Mormons follow Christian doctrine? My head hurts.

Now do you see, FC, why despite the fact that lds tend to be highly educated folks, head knowledge is always greatly subverted to feelings & burning bosoms? (Too many headaches & headspinnings over their pretzellogic).

[MHGinTN]

Deceit seems to be ingrain in Mormons at an early age ...

[JRochelle]

Thanks for the book recommend.

I assume is is a biography?