Is Mary Worthy of Worship?

Forerunner ^ | June 2003 | David Grabbe

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“An alternate view of Marionism...”

Who’s Marion?

[Boagenes]

I agree, and I also argue that they are doing so inadvertantly. Anything that distracts from Jesus, or the Father, or the Holy Spirit, is just that - a distraction. It's unwarranted, it's not necessary, and there's no basis in scripture or early church history for any of it.

Everything involving Mary is a much later development in Christendom, from around the time Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire. The goddess worship of the pagan cults (Artemis, in Ephesus, in particular) led the new pagan converts to latch onto Mary, in my opinion. I think this is where the entire cult of Mary formed, within the church, and I think the church just naturally rode the wave until it became established as doctrine.

I think the greatest thing the Reformation did was not establish sola fide or sola scriptura, but that it restored Jesus Christ to the proper place within the church and within worship - front and center - and removed all the things that crept in over fifteen hundred years, including many pagan influences. Removing the doctrine of Mariology/Marianism was the biggest and best thing that came out of the Reformation.

[FormerLib]

Anyone who believes the Roman Catholics worship Mary is either a fool or a deceiver.

Only someone who knows the heart of such a one will be able to tell the difference.

Of course, one could be both...

[FormerLib]

...I would say that's debatable.

So long as you don't claim it to be an honest debate, you're entitled to that opinion.

[vladimir998]

Oh, brother...I see that the author relied on Hislop. When will people figure out that Hislop simply made things up out of thin air? If Ralph Woodrow could be informed of that fact by a high school teacher I don’t see how these other people can’t figure it out.

[FormerLib]

...I hate their sin of over-venerating Mary.

When did you first realize you had this ability to pass judgment on other Christians instead of God Himself?

[Uri’el-2012]

Interesting, You deny that Jesus (Yah'shua) the pre-existent one;
One with the Godhead with YHvH; The "Word of God" did not in His Holy Word
tell us starting in Genesis what day He considered Holy.

You have been blinded to the Holy Word of Elohim by the Traditions
begun at the Council of Nicea by the Pagan Emperor: Constantine.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai

[Boagenes]

No one argues that Roman Catholics worship Mary consciously, or as established doctrine. What most of us against Mariology are arguing is that most Catholics around the world don't the know difference, or can't tell the difference, between "adoration" and "veneration" and that the extreme focus placed on Mary within the Church leads them into worship, even if it is inadvertent.

I would argue that many a Catholic has inadvertently turned Mary into a goddess and has slipped into idolatry, not necessarily willingly or with their own knowledge.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“Judging by Mark Twains comments and the preponderance of “Mary” threads as of late I would say that’s debatable.”

Wow. So, let’s see here. You base your conclusions on what Catholics REALLY do and believe on what a humorist wrote over a century ago and the fact that Catholics post threads here about Mary?

So, that would mean Protestants - according to your logic - must really worship the Bible since there are so many threads posted here about the Bible, right?

[FormerLib]

I also don't believe Mary was God's mother. She was the vessel through which God became manifest on Earth.

So she carried Him in her womb and gave birth to Him but the Roman Catholics cannot apply the term "Mother" to her for doing this?

M'kay, what term do you think they should be permitted to use (lest you judge them as being in sin once more)?

[FormerLib]

So, that would mean Protestants - according to your logic - must really worship the Bible since there are so many threads posted here about the Bible, right?

Could it mean they also worship Mary since they post threads about her as well, such as this one?

[FormerLib]

What most of us against Mariology are arguing is that most Catholics around the world don't the know difference, or can't tell the difference, between "adoration" and "veneration"...

Tell you what, why don't we go find one and ask him or her?

HEY, ANY OF YOU PAPISTS WORSHIP MARY?

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“Could it mean they also worship Mary since they post threads about her as well, such as this one?”

Touche!

Protestants worship Mary! Who knew?

[Petronski]

As I see it, yours is the only personal attack on this thread, so back off.

I've made no personal attack.

You bear false witness against me.

[Boagenes]

You can mock Twain's observations all you want, but he is presenting a plain and relatively unbiased observation of what he saw in Europe. You probably have to step outside the Catholic church to see it, but as a Protestant, I agree completely with Twain's observations. There are no Church's dedicated to "Jesus" or "Christ" or "the Holy Ghost", or anything like that. Just about every church is dedicated to Mary. That's not Twain making things up, that's a neutral observation.

You may not like it, but Protestants cannot reconcile Biblical teaching with the Catholic devotion to Mary. It makes no sense. It does not compute. And what we do observe, seems to conflict with Biblical declarations against idolatry. It's been this way for the last 500 years or so, and I don't suspect it will change anytime soon. This is the chief stumbling block to any ecumenism, in my view, much as I would like to see it happen and for Christian unity to be restored. It'll never happen until Catholics drop all the extraneous and get back to Jesus front and center. Certainly I cannot conceive of Protestants ever giving in and beginning to pray to Mary or saints or anyone other than the Trinity.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“HEY, ANY OF YOU PAPISTS WORSHIP MARY?”

No. Next!?

[big'ol_freeper]

Nope....not denying that in the covenant with Jews the Sabbath Day was Saturday.

I also don’t deny (as you do) that Peter and the Apostles where given the authority to loose and bind (Jesus: “Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”). Through Sacred Scripture (and other documents btw) I know that they used that authority to establish Sunday as the day of worship. Any Christian not fallen into the heresy of BIBLIOLITRY recognizes the authority given Peter and the Apostles to loose and bind.

[Petronski]

...also don't believe Mary was God's mother.

Nestorius lives!

[Boagenes]

I never used the word “Papists” that’s simply your own bias creeping in. I forgive you.

[FormerLib]

I never used the word “Papists” that’s simply your own bias creeping in. I forgive you.

As I forgive you your bias against the Roman Catholics and your attempt to bear false witness against me.