Posted on 04/12/2008 7:19:29 AM PDT by DouglasKC
A major area of doctrine that sets Roman Catholicism apart from the rest of this world's Christianity is its view of Mary, the mother of Jesus. Many weighty schools of thought and doctrine center on the person and function of Mary, and if one examines Roman Catholicism to any degree, the importance Catholics place on the mother of our Savior becomes readily apparent.
These beliefs are not just intellectual. They have led to applications and manifestations that literally fill volumes. For example, when a Catholic prays the rosary, the "Hail Mary" is said nine times as often as the Lord's Prayer. Every Catholic church boasts a statue of Mary, if not an outright shrine, and the graven images of Mary often have more prominence than those of Christ.
This emphasis on Mary caused Mark Twain to observe in The Innocents Abroad, Volume II:
In all seriousness—without meaning to be frivolous—without meaning to be irreverent, and more than all, without meaning to be blasphemous,—I state as my simple deduction from the things I have seen and the things I have heard, that the Holy Personages rank thus in Rome:
First—"The Mother of God"—otherwise the Virgin Mary.
Second—The Deity.
Third—Peter.
Fourth—Some twelve or fifteen canonized Popes and martyrs.
Fifth—Jesus Christ the Saviour—(but always as an infant in arms).
I may be wrong in this—my judgment errs often, just as is the case with other men's—but it is my judgment, be it good or bad.
Just here I will mention something that seems curious to me. There are no "Christ's Churches" in Rome, and no "Churches of the Holy Ghost," that I can discover. There are some four hundred churches, but about a fourth of them seem to be named for the Madonna and St. Peter. There are so many named for Mary that they have to be distinguished by all sorts of affixes, if I understand the matter rightly.
Sources of Doctrine
This past summer, as Pope John Paul II focused his efforts on reviving Catholicism in Europe, he made numerous statements entrusting the future of Europe to Mary. According to the ZENIT News Agency, he "placed Europe in Mary's hands," so that it will "become a symphony of nations committed to building together the civilization of love and peace." In the church of God, we put things in God's hands. Catholics put things into Mary's hands.
In October 2002, an item of controversy that reappeared in the Vatican—as it does on a regular basis—was the part that Mary plays in salvation and redemption. Large numbers of Catholic scholars, theologians, and clergy—including Pope John Paul II—are pushing for Mary to be officially recognized as "Co-Redemptrix," meaning she is a vital part of a Catholic's redemption, although supporters are quick to point out that they never put her on exactly the same level as Jesus Christ.
In God's church, our sole source of doctrinal teaching is the Bible, the inspired Word of God. For Catholics, though, the Bible is only one of the sources of dogma and doctrine—and, of course, they even have their own Bible, which allows them even more liberality when they look for scriptural backing. Another source and foundation of Catholic doctrine is church tradition. This means that if a certain person who meets their qualifications makes a statement, that statement can then be used as a doctrinal reference, just as we would use a scriptural reference. Every so often, one will hear about the Catholic Church canonizing or beatifying someone. In practical terms, this means the new saint is suddenly an authority, and church scholars can now use his or her writings to "prove" their doctrines.
The third source of doctrinal material for Catholics comes from "divine revelation." This can include statements by a Pope when he is speaking ex-cathedra—at which time his words are considered to be infallible—and it can also come from a vision or dream. Very often, church tradition and the associated "divine revelation" outweigh any scriptural basis. The doctrines concerning Mary are prime examples of this.
For instance, Catholics believe in the "Immaculate Conception" of Mary. This major doctrine states that Mary was conceived and born normally, but at the instant when her soul was fused to her flesh, she was protected and exempted from the stain of "original sin." The reasoning is that, for Jesus to be untouched by original sin, his mother, the one who conceived and bore Him, had to be "immaculate" as well.
In the Catholic Encyclopedia article on "Immaculate Conception," the writer admits this cannot be found in the Bible. Under the heading "Proof from Scripture," the article says, "No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture. But the first scriptural passage which contains the promise of the redemption, mentions also the Mother of the Redeemer" (emphasis ours). The rest of the article then explores the "Proof from Tradition" and the "Proof from Reason." In essence, it says that this doctrine lacks scriptural backing, but it has plenty from church tradition and human wisdom. Since Catholics cannot find, or will not acknowledge, any scriptures that disprove it, then it is settled as official doctrine.
The Catholic Encyclopedia's article on "The Blessed Virgin Mary" also never explicitly gives a reason why Mary should be venerated as she is. The best it can do is to say that there is evidence that the early Catholic Church (AD 150-400) venerated her. This grudging admission becomes important later.
Worthy of Worship?
The sole scriptural reference that even remotely suggests that Mary might be worthy of worship can be found in Luke 1:26-30:
Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin's name was Mary. And having come in, the angel said to her, "Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!" But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God."
While the angel gives Mary a number of high compliments, nothing indicates that she is worthy of worship, let alone being an intercessor between Jesus Christ and His followers, a Co-Redemptrix, sinless for her entire life, or given any other honor aside from being God's chosen vessel for the purpose of the Son of God being made flesh and blood. This is not to denigrate that role in the least, because truly it is a great honor, but God has throughout the ages chosen various people to fill different roles according to His will and purpose—and none of them are shown to be worthy of worship.
In verse 28, Gabriel tells Mary in his salutation that she is "highly favored," and in verse 30, that she "has found favor with God." The Greek word translated highly favored means "to grace," "to endue with special honor," or "to be accepted." The only other place it is used is Ephesians 1:6, where Paul says to the church at Ephesus and to the body of Christ generally, ". . . to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved." From this example, we can see that being "highly favored" is not synonymous with being worthy of worship. Everyone in the body of Christ is highly favored because God has accepted us through the justification brought about by Christ's sacrifice.
In verse 30, Gabriel tells Mary that she has found favor with God. "Favor" is the Greek word charis, which means "graciousness of manner or action." It indicates favor on the part of the giver and thankfulness on the part of the receiver. It is most often translated "grace" in the New Testament. Gabriel tells Mary that she is the recipient of charis, of grace and favor by God—the emphasis is on what God is doing. The type of grace bestowed on Mary is implied to be sweetness, charm, loveliness, joy, and delight. Again, we see nothing in this verse to give any indication that Mary should be worshipped. She simply received God's favor by being chosen to fulfill this role.
Blessed Among Women
Mary's cousin Elizabeth is inspired to recognize that Mary's baby is not just an ordinary baby, and she calls both Mary and her unborn Son "blessed":
And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!" (Luke 1:41-42)
Blessed literally means "to speak well of." It signifies celebrating with praises and invoking blessings upon a person. The New Testament uses it frequently, sometimes in relation to Christ, but often in relation to inanimate objects such as fish and loaves of bread. The Amplified Bible translates it as "favored of God." Again, nothing in the wording indicates that Mary is worthy of worship.
Mary is not the only woman to be given the title of "blessed" in the Bible. In the Song of Deborah, Jael—the woman who invited the fleeing Sisera into her tent, encouraged him to sleep, and then drove a tent peg through his skull—is accorded this same honor: "Most blessed among women is Jael, the wife of Heber the Kenite; blessed is she among women in tents" (Judges 5:24). Here, she is lauded as "blessed"—even "most blessed"—but there is no record of a shrine dedicated to her or of anybody worshipping her. She is simply recognized with a very honorable mention for the part she played in carrying out God's plan.
During Christ's ministry, a woman tries to draw special attention to Jesus' mother, and Christ puts things in the proper perspective for us:
And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!" But He said, "More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!" (Luke 11:27-28)
Jesus agrees that, even though his mother was "happy and to be envied," as the Amplified Bible puts it, even more blessed is anyone who hears God's Word and obeys it. He acknowledges that, yes, His mother was a fine lady—but anyone focusing on the personage of Mary was really missing the point. Christ was interested in the attitude and conduct of people, not their veneration of any human being!
We see a similar phenomenon within mainstream Christianity. Protestants tend to twist the gospel into simply a message about the person of Jesus Christ, and they like to gloss over the message that He actually spoke: "Repent [hear and obey], so you can be in alignment with the soon-coming Kingdom of God!" (Matthew 3:2; 4:17; Mark 1:15). They are so in love with the personality that they cannot hear what He says.
In addition to receiving a unique calling and favor by God, Mary was blessed in other ways. Evidence from the few Scriptural references to her shows that she was poor in spirit, meek, merciful, and pure in heart, and so, according to the Beatitudes of Matthew 5, she was blessed. She was undoubtedly persecuted for righteousness sake because she gave birth to what the world believed to be an illegitimate child. More than three decades afterward, there was still remembrance of Mary being pregnant without being married, when the Pharisees snidely remarked that they were not born of fornication—implying that Christ was (John 8:41). If the people did not believe that Christ was the Son of God—even after seeing Him live a perfect life and perform many miracles—it is unlikely they would have had any reason to believe that Mary was a virgin when she bore Him. She was persecuted and stigmatized because she accepted a responsibility that was anathema to those around her. She knew the truth, Joseph knew the truth, and of course, God knew the truth, and that was enough for Mary. It appears she endured the circumstance without complaining, and so was blessed.
Pagan Origins
The references to Mary in Luke 1 are the core scriptures that Catholic scholars use to try to prove that Mary is worthy of our worship. It is evident that the verses say little more than that Mary was given grace and favor by God, as we all have. They simply cannot be used as a starting point for establishing a doctrine of worship.
Aside from the little that the Bible says about Mary, there are other significant biblical principles that directly contradict a doctrine of Mary-worship. We could also examine a whole host of scriptures relating to human death and resurrection to show that Mary is in the same condition as the rest of the dead in Christ—awaiting the resurrection, without consciousness, and not in heaven (Psalm 146:3-4; Ecclesiastes 9:5; Job 14:12; John 3:13; Acts 2:29-34; I Corinthians 15:12-55). We could look at a vast array of scriptures that show that Mary-worship is indeed idolatry, because only God the Father and Jesus Christ are worthy of our worship (Exodus 34:14; Matthew 4:10). We could delve into the singular role that Jesus Christ plays as Mediator of the New Covenant—a role in which He does not need any help (Hebrews 8:6; 9:15; 12:24). These are not difficult concepts. Nevertheless, there is a vital lesson to be learned from this obviously erroneous doctrine.
The veneration of Mary, like many pagan practices, has its origin in the heathen religious system created by Nimrod and Semiramis, and more specifically, from the worship of the "Mother and Child." Through the millennia, the symbol of the "Mother and Child" has been endlessly repeated; one can find evidence of Mother-and-Child worship in all of the nations in ancient times. Though her characteristics varied from culture to culture, the common element is that the Mother was the Queen of Heaven, and she bore fruit even though a virgin.
In China, Semiramis became known as the "Holy Mother." The Germans named her "Hertha." The Scandinavians called her "Disa." Among the Druids, the "Vigo-Paritura" was worshipped as the "Mother of God." To the Greeks, she was "Aphrodite." To the Romans she was known as "Venus," and her son was "Jupiter." The Canaanites, and sometimes even the Israelites, worshipped "Ashtoreth" (Judges 2:13; 10:6; I Samuel 7:3-4; 12:10; I Kings 11:5, 33; II Kings 23:13), who was also known as "the queen of heaven" (Jeremiah 7:18). In Ephesus, the Great Mother was known as "Diana." T.W. Doane in his book Bible Myths sums it up this way: "Thus we see that the Virgin and child were worshipped in pagan times from China to Britain . . . and even in Mexico the 'Mother and child' were worshipped."
This false worship, having spread from Babylon to the various nations, finally became established at Rome and throughout the Roman Empire. James George Frazer in his The Golden Bough observes:
The worship of the Great Mother . . . was very popular under the Roman Empire. Inscriptions prove that the [Mother and the Child] received divine honors . . . not only in Italy and especially at Rome, but also in the provinces, particularly in Africa, Spain, Portugal, France, Germany, and Bulgaria. (vol. 1, p. 356)
One of the repeated patterns of the Roman church is syncretism, bringing pagan beliefs and practices into the church to keep certain groups happy. This is the same mechanism by which Christmas, Easter, Sunday-worship, and the pagan trinity-god were brought into the Roman church—and which most of mainstream Christianity has accepted without question. The church allowed the pagans within it to continue their practices—in this case, the worship of the Great Mother—only in a slightly different form and with a new name. Many pagans had been drawn to Christianity, but so strong in their mind was the adoration for the Mother-goddess, that they did not want to forsake her. Compromising church leaders saw that, if they could find some similarity in Christianity with the Mother-goddess worship of the pagans, they could increase their numbers by bringing many pagans into their fold. Of course, Mary fit the bill perfectly. So the pagans were allowed to continue their prayers and devotion to the Mother-goddess, but her name was changed to Mary. In this way, the pagan worship of the Mother was given the appearance of Christianity, and the course was set.
We saw earlier that Scripture cannot be used as a starting place for attempting to prove that Mary is worthy of worship. The true beginning for this practice lies with Semiramis and the Babylonian system begun by Nimrod. When the Catholic Encyclopedia presents as proof the historical fact that early Catholics venerated and worshipped Mary, it conveniently leaves out the fact that this adoration started in paganism and was shifted to the personage of the mother of Christ. Once the Roman Church adopted this practice, support had to be found for it, so it "interpreted" Scripture in a way that would lend credence to this practice. However, in these explanations it is apparent that Catholics start with a conclusion and then attempt to find support for it. These Catholic Encyclopedia entries are excellent examples of this.
Even though the worship of Mary will likely never be introduced as doctrine in the church of God, there is still an important object lesson here: Each of us has his own preferences, perspective, inclinations, and weaknesses. These things accompany us when we study the Bible. There are things we would like the Bible to say, based on our experiences, perspective, and particular circumstance. Just as the Catholics created a number of major doctrines out of nothing but pagan tradition, so there is also the potential for us to start with a conclusion or a thought of what makes the most sense to us, and then interpret or even twist the Scriptures to fit our worldview.
The pagans brought their inclinations and preferences of the Mother-goddess into the Roman Catholic Church, and the church officials then sanctified the paganism. This can happen to us, too, if we do not seek the "whole counsel of God" first, and then draw our conclusions later. This can happen to us if we are not careful to "prove all things, and hold fast to that which is good" (I Thessalonians 5:21).
It is a great irony that it was Augustine, the renowned Catholic theologian, who said, "If you believe what you like in the Gospel and reject what you do not like, it is not the Gospel you believe, but yourself" (emphasis ours).
Nearing the end of his life, Peter warns of twisting Scripture and of following those who do:
Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked. (II Peter 3:14-17)
The false doctrine of Mother-goddess worship is propped up by scriptures that have been twisted—and those who have done this have done so to their own destruction, because they have led millions upon millions of people into idolatry. Peter's warning applies to us, too. It is prudent, then, when we are studying, to at all times recognize our limitations, our biases, and our inclinations, so we can see biblical truth without interference from a faulty lens.
We fall on our knees because we believe in reverent prayer. We obviously believe that our prayers are heard.
[Luke 15:10] [Matt. 8:10] [Heb. 1:14] [Zechariah 1:12-13][Tob. 7:12][Revelation 8:3-4] [Genesis 20:7] [Job 42:8][Deuteronomy 5:5] [Galatians 3:19-20]
[Luke 15:10] Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
[Matthew 8:10] When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.?????
[Hebrews 1:14] Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
[Zechariah 1:12-13] Then the angel of the LORD answered and said, O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years? And the LORD answered the angel that talked with me with good words and comfortable words.
[Tobit 7:12] Raguel said, Then take her from henceforth according to the manner, for thou art her cousin, and she is thine, and the merciful God give you good success in all things.?????
[Revelation 8:3-4] And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
[Genesis 20:7] Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine. Not dead yet!
[Job 42:8] Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job. I pray for other folks also....but I don't pray to dead people.
[Deuteronomy 5:5] (I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to show you the word of the LORD: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount;) saying.?????
[Galatians 3:19-20] Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
I have discovered your error. You evidently believe dead people are angels. Let me assure you.....they are not.
I am glad that you read the citations, which was a good start. Now keeping in mind that most Christians interpret scripture in the light of tradition and do not hold to the protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura, I hope that you will indulge my citing of Christian tradition which informs our faith. For expedience, the passage below is taken from the 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia, available on line at http:/newadvent.org :
The saints who reign together with Christ offer up their own prayers to God for men. It is good and useful suppliantly to invoke them, and to have recourse to their prayers, aid, and help for obtaining benefits from God, through His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, Who alone is our Redeemer and Saviour. Those persons think impiously who deny that the Saints, who enjoy eternal happiness in heaven, are to be invoked; or who assert either that they do not pray for men, or that the invocation of them to pray for each of us is idolatry, or that it is repugnant to the word of God, and is opposed to the honour of the one Mediator of and men, Jesus Christ (Sess. XXV).
This had already been explained by St. Thomas:
Prayer is offered to a person in two ways: one as though to be granted by himself, another as to be obtained through him. In the first way we pray to God alone, because all our prayers ought to be directed to obtaining grace and glory which God alone gives, according to those words of the Psalm (lxxxiii, 12): ‘The Lord will give grace and glory.’ But in the second way we pray to the holy angels and to men not that God may learn our petition through them, but that by their prayers and merits our prayers may be efficacious. Wherefore it is said in the Apocalypse (viii, 4): ‘And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel’ (Summ. Theol., II-II, Q. lxxxiii, a. 4).
The reasonableness of the Catholic teaching and practice cannot be better stated than in St. Jerome’s words:
If the Apostles and Martyrs, while still in the body, can pray for others, at a time when they must still be anxious for themselves, how much more after their crowns, victories, and triumphs are won! One man, Moses, obtains from God pardon for six hundred thousand men in arms; and Stephen, the imitator of the Lord, and the first martyr in Christ, begs forgiveness for his persecutors; and shall their power be less after having begun to be with Christ? The Apostle Paul declares that two hundred three score and sixteen souls, sailing with him, were freely given him; and, after he is dissolved and has begun to be with Christ, shall he close his lips, and not be able to utter a word in behalf of those who throughout the whole world believed at his preaching of the Gospel? And shall the living dog Vigilantius be better than that dead lion? (”Contra Vigilant.”, n. 6, in P. L., XXIII, 344).
...The greatest of the Fathers in the succeeding centuries speak plainly both of the doctrine and practice of intercession and invocation. “But not the High-Priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep (ai te ton prokekoimemenon hagion psychai, Origen, “De Oratione”, n. xi, in P. G., XI, 448). In many other places Origen uses similar expressions; indeed it may be said that there is hardly any treatise or homily in which he does not refer to the intercession of the angels and saints. St. Cyprian, writing to Pope Cornelius, says: “Let us be mutually mindful of each other, let us ever pray for each other, and if one of us shall, by the speediness of the Divine vouchsafement, depart hence first, let our love continue in the presence of the Lord, let not prayer for our brethren and sisters cease in the presence of the mercy of the Father” (Ep. lvii, in P. L., IV, 358). “To those who would fain stand, neither the guardianship of saints nor the defences of angels are wanting” (St. Hilary, “In Ps. cxxiv”, n. 5, 6, in P. L., X, 682). “We then commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, martyrs, that God, by their prayers and intercessions, may receive our petitions” (St. Cyril of Jerusalem, “Cat. Myst.”, v, n. 9) in P. G., XXXIII, 1166). “Remember me, ye heirs of God, ye brethren of Christ, supplicate the Saviour earnestly for me, that I may be freed though Christ from him that fights against me day by day” (St. Ephraem Syrus, “De Timore Anim.”,in fin.). “Ye victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Saviour; ye who have boldness of speech towards the Lord Himself; ye saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us that so we may love him” (St. Ephraem, “Encom. in Mart.”). “Do thou, [Ephraem] that art standing at the Divine altar, and art ministering with angels to the life-giving and most Holy Trinity, bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom” (St. Gregory of Nyssa, “De vita Ephraemi”, in fin., P. G., XLVI, 850). “Mayest thou [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and life; and shepherd [or shepherd with me] this sacred flock . . . gladdening us with a more perfect and clear illumination of the Holy Trinity, before Which thou standest” (St. Gregory of Nazianzus, Orat. xvii — according to others, xxiv — “De S. Cypr.”, P. G., XXXV, 1193). In like manner does Gregory pray to St. Athanasius (Orat. xxi, “In laud. S. Athan.”, P. G., XXXV, 1128). “O holy choir! O sacred band! O unbroken host of warriors! O common guardians of the human race! Ye gracious sharers of our cares! Ye co-operators in our prayer! Most powerful intercessors!” (St.Basil, “Hom. in XL Mart.”, P. G., XXXI, 524). “May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ’s benignant countenance” (St. Ambrose, “Hexaem.”, V, xxv, n. 90, in P. L., XIV, 242). St. Jerome has been quoted above. St. John Chrysostom frequently speaks of invocation and intercession in his homilies on the saints, e.g. “When thou perceivest that God is chastening thee, fly not to His enemies . . . but to His friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to Him, and who have great power” (parresian, “boldness of speech” — Orat. VIII, “Adv. Jud.”, n. 6, in P. G., XLVIII, 937). “He that wears the purple, laying aside his pomp, stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God; and he that wears the diadem begs the Tent-maker and the Fisherman as patrons, even though they be dead” (”Hom. xxvi, in II Ep. ad Cor.”, n. 5, in P. G., LXI, 581). “At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps” (St. Augustine, “In Joann.”, tr. lxxxiv, in P. L., XXXIV, 1847).
Prayers to the saints occur in almost all the ancient liturgies. Thus in the Liturgy of St. Basil: “By the command of Thine only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of Thy saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of Thy holy name which is invoked upon us”. Cf. the Liturgy of Jerusalem, the Liturgy of St. Chrysostom, the Liturgy of Nestorius, the Coptic Liturgy of St. Cyril, etc. That these commemorations are not later additions is manifest from the words of St. Cyril of Jerusalem: “We then commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, martyrs, that God by their prayers and intercessions may receive our petitions” (”Cat. Myst.”, v, in P. G., XXXIII, 1113). (See Renaudot, “Liturgiarum Orientalium Collectio”, Paris, 1716.)
We readily admit that the doctrine of the intercession of the saints is a development from the teaching of Scripture and that the practice is open to abuse. But if the carefully-worded and wholesome decrees of the Council of Trent be adhered to, there is nothing in the doctrine or practice which deserves the condemnation expressed in Article xxii of the Anglican religion. Indeed the High Church Anglicans contend that it is not the invocation of saints that is here rejected, but only the “Romish doctrine”, i.e. the excesses prevailing at the time and afterwards condemned by the Council of Trent. “In principle there is no question herein between us and any other portion of the Catholic Church. . . . Let not that most ancient custom, common to the Universal Church, as well Greek as Latin, of addressing Angels and Saints in the way we have said, be condemned as impious, or as vain and foolish” [Forbes, Bishop of Brechin (Anglican), “Of the Thirty-nine Articles”, p. 422]. The reformed Churches, as a body, reject the invocation of the saints. Article xxi of the Augsburg Confession says: “Scripture does not teach us to invoke the Saints, or to ask for help from the Saints; for it puts before us Christ as the one mediator, propitiatory, high-priest and intercessor.” In the “Apology of the Augsburg Confession” (ad art. xxi, sects. 3, 4), it is admitted that the angels pray for us, and the saints, too, “for the Church in general”; but this does not imply that they are to be invoked. The Calvinists, however, reject both intercession and invocation as an imposture and delusion of Satan, since thereby the right manner of praying is prevented, and the saints know nothing of us, and have no concern as to what passes on earth (”Gall. Confess.”, art. xxiv; “Remonst. Conf.” c. xvi, sect. 3).
I would not call Protestant church form bovine waste. I called the article’s faleshoods and delusions about what Catholics believe bovine waste.
I don’t mind honest disagreements over doctrine when it really is about what Catholics believe. Claim you don’t believe as Catholics do in the Real Presence, fine. Claim you don’t agree that Mary was assumed into heaven as Catholics do, fine. Differences in beliefs about justification, fine. All these are honest differences between Catholics and most Protestants.
But claiming that Catholics worship Mary giving her the glory, and honor reserved for God alone will earn the label bovine waste.
[Deuteronomy 5:6-7] I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. Thou shalt have none other gods before me. [Matthew 4:10] Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
[Deuteronomy 5:8-10] Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments. [1 Corinthians 10:14] Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
[Deuteronomy 5:11] Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. [1 Timothy 6:1] Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
[Deuteronomy 5:12-15] Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. Six days thou shalt labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day. [Hebrews 4:4-9] For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
[Deuteronomy 5:16] Honor thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. [Matthew 19:19] Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[Deuteronomy 5:17] Thou shalt not kill. [Romans 13:9] For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[Deuteronomy 5:18] Neither shalt thou commit adultery. [Matthew 19:18] He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness.
[Deuteronomy 5:19] Neither shalt thou steal. [Romans 13:9] For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[Deuteronomy 5:20] Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbor. [Romans 13:9] For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[Deuteronomy 5:21] Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbor's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbor's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbor's. [Romans 7:7] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Forgive me, I missed it. What is the New Testament chapter-and-verse reference for the Ten Commandments?
Not a reference to them, mind you, but a listing of them.
No, I mean, where in the New Testament can you find a listing of the Ten Commandments?
They must be enumerated in the NT, right?
O.K., here is your first error: The saints who reign together with Christ offer up their own prayers to God for men.
[Revelation 20:4-6] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished). This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The Saints who will reign with Our Saviour for a thousand years are at this time asleep in their graves. They are the ones who take part in the first resurrection. Hasn't happened yet!
But in the second way we pray to the holy angels and to men not that God may learn our petition through them, but that by their prayers and merits our prayers may be efficacious. Wherefore it is said in the Apocalypse (viii, 4): ‘And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel’ (Summ. Theol., II-II, Q. lxxxiii, a. 4)
Correct me if I'm wrong here.....but isn't this most of the debate? Do you pray to other entities than God? You folks vehemently all say you don't! Thomas evidently disagreed with your position and substantiates mine.... and other's on this thread!
Origen uses similar expressions; indeed it may be said that there is hardly any treatise or homily in which he does not refer to the intercession of the angels and saints. St. Cyprian, writing to Pope Cornelius, says: “Let us be mutually mindful of each other, let us ever pray for each other, and if one of us shall, by the speediness of the Divine vouchsafement, depart hence first, let our love continue in the presence of the Lord, let not prayer for our brethren and sisters cease in the presence of the mercy of the Father”.
Origen....being mainly an Alexandrian based scholar of Egyptian descent had much against him. He was totally Hellenistic in his outlook. Hence his belief in an immediate soul ascension to heaven (not biblical in the slightest) but totally Greek in practice. Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage, said this: "If Christ Jesus our Lord and God is Himself the High Priest of God the Father, and first offered Himself as a sacrifice to the Father, and commanded this to be done in remembrance of Himself, then assuredly the priest acts truly in Christ's place when he reproduces what Christ did, and he then offers a true and complete sacrifice to God the Father, if he begins to offer as he sees Christ Himself has offered." Heresy!
What these folks basically did was to give a back a full blown centralized priesthood.....something that Our Saviours sacrifice had done away with. And they did it within a short 250 years after the crucifixion!
We readily admit that the doctrine of the intercession of the saints is a development from the teaching of Scripture and that the practice is open to abuse.
Well.....just where does this idea come from? The abuse is self evident....I'm talking about the development from scripture. I'd like to see that!
Why should they be listed? Everyone who wrote the New Testament knew them....and assumed that subsequent Christians would know them also as the Hebrew scriptures were considered just that.....scripture!
They are in fact listed, as I pointed out in post #205, but there is no separate chapter and verse. What exactly are you getting at? Have they been abolished? Discontinued? Outmoded? Built in obsolescence?
I know.......they're too Joooooish!
You play The Game very well.
I'm with you on that point: It's not necessary. Yet, somehow, mention in the Old Testament simply isn't enough. Or so I'm told:
Yes, saints are alive in Heaven. However, I come back to the same point, if they can hear us pray, and, we are helped greatly in such prayers, why not a word about it in the New Testament?
Well, if there's no word about it in the New Testament, it must be illegitimate...
Or, anyway, so I've been told.
Yes, good point. Unlike the Seventh Day Adventists, Orthodox and Catholics embrace the Hellenism of early Christianity.
Why did Daniel refuse to pray to anyone but God?
There's something I'm clearly not getting here. Catholics are coming to this thread and claiming that they don't worship Mary, yet nearly every article I read certainly seems like Mary is worshipped. She's sinless. She intercedes in prayer. She was taken bodily into heaven. She's prayed to. She has a role in redemption. How do you define "worship"? So, that would mean Protestants - according to your logic - must really worship the Bible since there are so many threads posted here about the Bible, right?
So I've heard. What element of "worship" is not done by Catholics in regards to Mary? What does "worship" mean?
You wrote:
“There’s something I’m clearly not getting here. Catholics are coming to this thread and claiming that they don’t worship Mary, yet nearly every article I read certainly seems like Mary is worshipped.”
This is what blows my mind. You make that statement: “...yet nearly every article I read certainly seems like Mary is worshipped” and yet you present no evidence of such. Instead, you present the following:
“She’s sinless.”
Whether she is or isn’t has absolutely nothing to do with any supposed worship on our part. We don’t believe her sinlessness makes her divine. We just believe her Son gave her a special gift of grace that preserved her from sin. He’s divine. She isn’t. And we don’t worhip her.
“She intercedes in prayer.”
Again, whether she does or doesn’t has absolutely nothing to do with any supposed worship on our part. She is able to intercede because of Christ’s generosity. She has no power of her own.
“She was taken bodily into heaven.”
“Taken” is the key word. She was dependent upon Christ. She had no power of her own and still doesn’t.
“She’s prayed to.”
But not worshipped. There’s a difference. You may not know that, but we do.
“She has a role in redemption.”
She carried the Redeemer. She was told her heart would be pierced as Jesus was pierced.
“How do you define “worship”?”
Correctly. Worship is adoration and I don’t give adoration to Mary. Never have. Never will.
I don't know much about the organization other than I enjoyed this article. I do however agree with many of their views. I consider myself a first century Christian. Those in biblical times hadn't "developed" a notion of the trinity. That's an evolved viewpoint hashed out by men over the centuries and agreed upon by tradition. Biblical Christians believed the father and son to be divine persons in the Godhead and considered the Holy spirit to be their intercession and presence in our reality and lives. I don't believe that's modalism.
Sabbath keeping was the norm in biblical times for Christians as was observing God's holy days. Days such as Christmas and Easter are not biblical holy days. They too are evolved traditions derived from what is now called the Roman church.
I am not ashamed of embracing and doing the same things my Lord Jesus Christ and his followers taught and did and I'll gladly wear the label of heretic if that's the cost.
And this blows my mind. Mary would NEVER have called herself sinless. She would have recognized her sin and have accepted the sacrifice of Christ to cleanse her from it.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
It's simply unrealistic that John, the author, the caretaker of Mary after the death of Jesus, would write this and NOT say "except Mary".
Correctly. Worship is adoration and I don’t give adoration to Mary. Never have. Never will.
The Catholic Encyclopedia's definition of Adoration has this as a component:
...in a looser sense the reverence shown to any person or object possessing, inherently or by association, a sacred character or a high degree of moral excellence.
Actually, Huber's right. Twain's ranking is ridiculous. And I also believe your own personal observations are being improperly skewed by your theology. Here's why.
The most important part of worship throughout human history was not prayer necessarily but sacrifice. This is pretty clear in the Old Testament, and you see it in pagan religions as well: when Caesar was made a god, for instance, it consisted of people sacrificing to him. And of course the way that the pagans tried to sniff out the early Christians was that they asked them to "offer a pinch of incense" - i.e. sacrifice to-- Minerva or some other false deity.
Now Protestant/Evangelical theology has largely taken the position that sacrifice is over and done with, made unnecessary by the cross. I don't agree with that position, but I'm not here to debate whether it's right or wrong. But I am here to say that Catholicism, which unlike Protestantism, *is a sacrificial religion* and therefore should be judged by those standards--does not, I repeat does not ever ever ever sacrifice to anyone other than God.
Here are translations of the two Masses currently in use:
http://www.catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/Texts/Index/4
Note that we consider the Mass a true and proper sacrifice. I'm not asking you to agree with that, I'm just asking you to objectively take a look at the Mass and tell me to whom is the sacrifice being offered? It's not Mary. It's not the saints. It's solely God. Even when we have a Mass dedicated, for example, to Mary, still the sacrifice is always offered to God.
Again, I don't expect you to accept sacramental theology at this stage. I just want you and every other person to recognize that although you may not see any difference at all between how we treat God and how we treat Mary, it's because of your theological assumptions. If you assume that worship of God consists only of prayer...well then yeah!...it looks like Catholicism is polytheism! But if you look at it from the framework of sacrifice, then it's patently obvious that "worship" of Mary never ever comes even close to the adoration of God.
Does that make sense? I'm not trying to get you to agree with our sacramental theology here...I'm merely trying to get you to understand that your own theological underpinnings are affecting your personal observations.
Looking at some scripture there are many miracles that Jesus performed in our reality and they are of course never described as "visions".
Another supernatural event just came to mind:
Mar 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
Mar 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
This is something supernatural that was viewed, yet it wasn't a vision.
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