Posted on 04/12/2008 7:19:29 AM PDT by DouglasKC
What may be popularly done, and what is taught are two different things. Also praying (to God) FOR people who have died is entirely different than praying to people who have died.
I can confidently say, other than Anglo-Catholics (whose theology is Roman Catholic, without the pope...and who don't claim the name "protestant"), NO PROTESTANT DENOMINATION allows praying to people in heaven. Please look it up, if you don't believe me. I asked you to name one denomination which does, and you didn't. Anecdotal "many people do" evidence doesn't count.
If sentimental and ignorant Protestants do practice such prayers, it is in contravention to what all their various denominations teach.
I myself have a sister in Heaven, and occasionally I will ask the Lord Jesus to give her my best, but, I know I can't pray "to" her, as scripture nowhere indicates citizens in Heaven are omni-present, only God is. The expression, "heaven knows" or "heaven can see" is simply a short-cut for "God knows" or "God can see." It is only empty assertions which sentimentally claim saints in heaven are all-knowing or all-seeing.
My point again: God the Holy Spirit saw to it that all important doctrines for the saints on earth to believe were incorporated into scripture--so that there could be no manipulation or change by future fallible Church leaders, had those doctrines been simply oral tradition. We can learn from tradition, as the opinion of saints past, but only as that tradition is submitted to God's Holy Word. When it becomes rival to the record of the Apostles, we must side with the Apostles, as written down in scripture.
Since the Apostles never taught praying to saints, I never will either.
Why would God demand near-perfection to house the Old Covenant, but would not do the same with the New Covenant? She is the height of Creation because God's ability to sculpt and create far surpasses that which can ever be done by the hands of men.
Although as you know, we actually only pray to God, but we ask the Saints, believing that they are alive and in heaven, to pray for us.
Context, context, context.
I guess its time to start a thread "Why do Protetsants worship a book" A book, BTW, that was put together by "Romanists"
"I believe the council of Ephesus in 431 AD also played a major role, there Mary was proclaimed the Theotokos. Instead of translating the term 'God-bearer' it was popular to translate it 'Mother of God'."
The difficulty with an English translation of Theotokos as "God-bearer" is that it doesn't really communicate the full meaning of the term.
Here's an entry from Wikipedia (I use it because it's easily accesible and the information found here is generally in agreement with other authorities):
"Theotokos is a compound of two Greek words, Θεός God and τόκος parturition, childbirth."
Thus, it would be better to translate as "God-birther." Mary is the woman who gave birth to God. That is the doctrine pronounced at Ephesus.
Typically, we call women who give birth to a child the mother of the person born. Thus, as Mary is the "God-birther," "Mother of God" works equally well.
This is especially so as Mary is biologically the mother of Jesus, not merely a surrogate (an idea likely beyond the ken of Christians up until relatively recently), Who is God.
sitetest
It's funny that the natural response of many of the Catholics on this thread is not to stop for one minute, and really think about it - really question why so many fellow Christians (because we are fellow Christians whether or not you want to believe it) see such a problem here (hint: look at Twain's list) believe this about the Church, but to instead launch a full frontal.
“Nestorius lives!”
Indeed.
“Vanity of vanities, says Qoheleth, vanity of vanities! All things are vanity!
“What profit has man from all the labor which he toils at under the sun? One generation passes and another comes, but the world forever stays.
“The sun rises and the sun goes down; then it presses on to the place where it rises. Blowing now toward the south, then toward the north, the wind turns again and again, resuming its rounds.
“All rivers go to the sea, yet never does the sea become full. To the place where they go, the rivers keep on going.
“All speech is labored; there is nothing man can say. The eye is not satisfied with seeing nor is the ear filled with hearing.
“What has been, that will be; what has been done, that will be done. There is nothing new under the sun.”
There are no new heresies. They're all re-treads.
sitetest
What I find so funny is how quick Protestants are to jump in and instruct us Catholics as to what it is we believe.
It's a nice trick to try to rephrase the question the way you want to answer it, but no, I asked you the following: "Do you believe Mary was the egg-donor or just the surrogate?"
The problem occurs when the term "Mother of God" is the accepted translation, it implies all kinds of things that just aren't true. For example, that Mary as mother of God has authority over God. Another example that Mary is the "Queen of Heaven", or "Queen mother of Heaven", or Mary is the wife of the Holy Spirit since it was through the Holy Spirit that Jesus was conceived.
If all these things become acceptable then believing she can magnify prayers, or aid in your salvation easily follow. I find no evidence of any of that in Scripture.
The term God-bearer is more on the mark in that Mary was blessed to be used by God for His plan of salvation. Mary does not bestow blessings on others because of this.
What are these.....the speed limit laws?
[John 14:15] If ye love me, keep my commandments.
[John 15:10] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
[1 John 5:3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
One would first have to convince me that your example is a valid comparison. Just because you see some linkage or another does not make it so.
If anything, Christ would more evenly represent the Ark, which was the representation of the manifestation of God among men:
The article was so full of bovine waste I gave up reading the whole thing.
The outright "Goofiness" displayed by your traditions and doctrines make some of us just smile and shake our heads. But, I won't compare your liturgy to "Bovine Waste" out of respect for your right to be.......just silly!
Admonition and instruction to keep His commandments.
Can you find the Ten Commandments in the New Testament?
“The problem occurs when the term ‘Mother of God’ is the accepted translation, it implies all kinds of things that just aren't true.”
Maybe in your mind.
The problem for you is that Theotokos literally means “God-birther,” and humans who give birth are the mothers of the humans to whom they give birth.
The ancient doctrine set down at Ephesus is that Mary gave birth to God. She is, thus, the Mother of God, according to the voice of the entire Church Undivided.
You may object to the conclusion, but that doesn't permit a re-interpretation of what actually was pronounced at Ephesus.
sitetest
Why do you have to fall on your knees.....fold your hands and close your eyes? Why don't you just lean against a street light or sit down in a chair and simply ask directly for their intercession? It makes about as much sense! They're dead! They cannot hear you!
[Ecclesiastes 3:19-20][Ecclesiastes 9:5][Ecclesiastes 9:10][Psalm 146:4][Matthew 10:28].
Like someone said....earlier. If it walks like a .......
I just did.....or are there really only nine that John is referencing? This, because of your outright hatred for the fourth would be a legitimate question.....don't you think?
The vast majority of protestant/evangelical Christians are faithful, and bible believing, but terribly uneducated on church history and any theology other than their own.
Furthermore, in discussing the matter with ministers at a number of protestant denominations, including Presbyterian Church in America, Anglican Mission in America, Southern Baptist, Associate Reformed Presbyterian, Dutch Reformed, etc. I have discovered an almost willful avoidance of study of either the church fathers or medieval theology, the former being largely skimmed over and the latter being grouped with corruption and indulgences and therefore not worth studying or labeled as counterproductive to salvation.
Many protestant denominations actively teach the shortcomings of all traditional faiths, both catholic and orthodox, and use this teaching to underscore why their particular flavor of post reformation theology is the right one. Because some of this type of thinking is necessary to justify their own existence apart from the traditional church, their treatment of catholicism or orthodoxy often tends to be nothing more than a strawman which they can easily tear down.
I know many exceptions to this, people like Chuck Colson and Warren Smith, but they are in the minority.
If you would like to discuss this further via FReepmail, I would be more than happy to cite specifics and also consider your observations.
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