Mary and the Problem of Christian Unity

Coming Home Network ^ | Kenneth J. Howell, Ph. D.

[Quix]

Forgot to ping y'all.

IIRC,

There's only one verse in the entire NT wherein TRADITION

IS REMOTELY positive.

Throughout the Gospels, Christ rails at

TRADITIONS OF MEN--EVEN THOSE ENSCONCED UNDER SOME SCRIPTURAL JURY-RIGGED, RATIONALIZED UMBRELLA

CHRIST RAILS AT MUCH MORE FIERCELY than is allowable hereon.

The RC edifice's magicsterical pile of stinking !!!!TRADITIONS!!!! and doctrines of men are just the sorts of layers of 'buffer' and 'burdens to bear' that Jesus railed at RELIGIOUS POLITICAL PONTIFICATORS against 2000 years ago.

CHRIST DIED TO REMOVE

all such from the spiritual lives of folks who authentically

TRUST IN GOD--AND GOD ALONE as the song goes.

HIS DEATH WAS ACCOMPANIED BY A RENDING OF THE VEIL IN THE TEMPLE.

And centuries of the RC magicstericals have been adding an ever thickening veil to replace it ever since. They just place it more than a little metaphorically on the face of the caraciture of the Magnificent Magical Earth-Mother Mary as an enticement for the millions of folks suffering a MOMMY/DADDY deficit of love as a very clever kind of seduction away from a focus

ON GOD ALONE.

[Quix]

The sad part is, they actually believe that pile of Rubber History.

[RobRoy]

>>ABSOLUTELY CORRECT, to the last word. Thanks tons. <<

Yikes! Are you implying that there is unity?! I dunno, that makes me awfully uncomfortable...

So, how do you feel about guitars in church? ;)

[RobRoy]

This tradition thing is another it turns out that you and I seem to literally HATE.

I remember watching “Fiddler on the Roof” and when that song (Tradition) came on, I commented to my wife that it is one of the things Christians want to avoid.

My wife was a catholic for many decades, she still misses some of the “cultural traditions”. We’ve even been to a midnight mass. But she recognises it as cultural, rather than Christian.

Heck, even in the pentacostal movement, I thing that probably 80% of what we consider Christian is really just culture and tradition.

One thing though, we always use a noble fir for our Christmast tree because that is what the Apostle Paul used.

[roamer_1]

ON GOD ALONE.

Absolutely right, Quix.

[RobRoy]

Not to make this a circle back slap, but, that was a good post.

And your last line reminds me of what I read many years ago. No matter how many friends and family you have, when you die, you die alone. And without Christ the other side will be lonely indeed.

[Bobsvainbabblings]

roamer_1, You are close with what you have written but there needs to be a few changes to understand why Mary only had to be a virgin for God’s plan to work.

Because of the fall, man is bound by the sin nature. Adam was a Son of God. He gave up that birthright for himself and all mankind to Satan. This is why Jesus told the religious leaders of the time that their father was Satan. We are no different today. Our natural father is Satan. It is only because of the work of Jesus that we can be born again and adopted into God’s family regaining the birthright and privileges that Adam had before he fell.

Man’s sin nature is passed from Adam through the fathers as stated in Ex. 20:5;

I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquities of the fathers unto the third and forth generation of them that hate me.

God choose to impregnate a virgin for Jesus’ birth so that there would be no misunderstanding as to who the father is. Because there was no human father, there was no sin nature. He was the same as Adam before the fall. He was born sinless and had free will like Adam. Unlike Adam, He choose to obey His Father. This is why Paul stated in Romans 5 and 6, (paraphrasing); “As by one man, Adam, all sin came into the world, by one man, Jesus, it was conquered. We can live a less sinful life as Christians because we are no longer bound by the sin nature. It is now our free will when we sin.”

For the courts of Heaven to be satisfied, Jesus had to be exactly like pre fall Adam.

As you can plainly see, there was only one reason for a virgin birth. All the talk about Mary being sinless and/or her perpetual virginity had nothing to do with God’s plan working and takes away from who we should be focused on. BVB

[Quix]

Would one be amazed that a corporate structure, given fifteen hundred years of sole and monopolistic power, and having full control of it's destiny, with power over kings and countries, their armies and their peoples, might become corrupted by those who rise to the top of such a structure?

Whatever can you mean! roamer! RC folks are DIFFERENT THAN OTHER HUMANS! We live in the lap of Magnificent Magical Earth-Mother Mary. She, with her gracous lap and nurturing bosom keep us provisioned and saintly all the live long day. We'd never ever, ever, ever fall for such political hideocies as murdering far and wide in the name of THE CROSS. We'd never be seduced into torturing people for simple faith and belief in God and Scripture. We'd never consign South American native tribes to slave mongers for expedience reasons. Noooooo sireeeeee. We've always been as pure as the driven snow ever since Christ bowed and kissed Peter's ring as a sign of how foundationally great that fiesty reactionary pebble would come to be.

I mean the whole idea that RC's could remotely fall prey in the least respect to the idolatry and blasphemy tendencies of other mortal humans is just BEYOND comprehension. RC's will never be able to wrap their minds around anything less than their abject inherent saintliness. Besides all that . . .

We have our plastic Magnificent Magical Earth-Mother Mary's and a whole host of 'spiritual aids;' rituals; doctrines of men; doctrines of demons and the like to keep us as pure as Mary's hanky. What more could we possibly hope for!

When we get to Heaven, we may make a courtesy call on Jesus but it will be Mary's lap we eternally sit in, staring mindlessly at her hypnotic eyes forever.

Join us, The Soma is delicious and a great boost to the mindless purity of our dogmatic rituals; our devoted appreciation of our Rubber Scriptures, rubber histories, rubber dictionaries . . . Come on along . . . the ride is serenely mindless and sooooo comforting as Mary sooths away all life's struggles with her magical hanky!

[RobRoy]

This probably should be freepmail, but I hardly ever use it, but let me say that was truly a beautiful and inspiring post.

Thank you.

[roamer_1]

Yikes! Are you implying that there is unity?! I dunno, that makes me awfully uncomfortable...

So, how do you feel about guitars in church? ;)

There is a great unity in the aggregated churches, even to include or Catholic FRiends. The things that matter to us all are relatively the same across all Christian churches. It is, in every case, the doctrines of men that cause confusion.

Considering the vast and varied Creation that He made, Would you suppose that variation would not also be present and good within His Church?

If the Word is GOOD, what differences in attention and praise would be bad? Dance in the Spirit before the Lord. Pray in the Spirit before the Lord. The expression of such need not be the same in every one...

[Quix]

No, my FRiend, while preaching and community still serve as the spear point of evangelism, It is the written Word of God which is, should be, and always and forever will be the very backbone of authority. Who can claim wisdom above those Words? who can lay claim above the claims of Holy Jehovah and His Christ?

INDEED.

Christ said to satan . . .

IT IS WRITTEN . . .

NOT

"Mommy said . . ."

or

"Mommy's Magicsterical said . . ."

Blessings,

[RobRoy]

With that I firmly agree. It is why I do not consider Mormonism Christian, but pretty much all of the other mainline “Professing to be Christian” churches I do consider to be Christian.

I know what I consider may not mean anything to others, but it is a position I, as all men, must take for myself.

[Quix]

i AGREE.

There’s a lot of idol worshipping Pentecostas . . . just different idols or different labels on them.

Thanks for your kind replies. But a nap is calling me convincingly.

[Manfred the Wonder Dawg]

Most excellent post. Regarding the corporate structure and its consequences, true for any church.

Many churches largely fits what has been described as a “Traditional Church”, within the evangelical landscape. This is a church which appeals to the world with programs and door to door evangelism; concludes sermons by inviting people to walk the aisle or accept Jesus; proclaiming that Jesus longs for a personal relationship with each person and all one must do is to invite Him into his heart.

This model, along with those describing “Seeker Sensitive” and “Missional”, starts with a secondary question – “How can we reach the world?” This is a good question, but it’s not primary. The primary question is, “How do we worship?” Worship is primary because God is primary. Programs that only give the illusion of honoring God exist because churches lose their primary focus – which is to be on the Lord, not His creation.

A 4th model is described, “The Godward Church” – A group of people gather in a room. One of them stands up, opens a Bible and says, “This is what God says.” He explains the text and how it should affect one’s life. The church sings, prays, shares the bread and the cup, and goes home. Not very market savvy. Not very exciting. But the Word of God comes with power, the Holy Spirit, and deep conviction. Consciences are pierced, lives changed. People go home worshiping God by hating sin, loving one another, and proclaiming the gospel to their neighbors. A Godward church is a worshiping church, which will make it a supernaturally attractive church; distinct like salt and bright like fire. The people begin to look like – sons and daughters of God. That’s most attractive – and it starts with hearing the Word of God.

(I’ve taken the preceding church descriptions from a report from 9Marks located at http://involve.9marks.org/site/DocServer/2007_Report_Card.pdf?docID=281).

Most churches were once small flocks with shepherds. As the pastors taught the Word and fed the sheep, some small flocks grew to become mega-churches. These mega-churches often grew to the point and by methods such that there was no longer a flock, but a herd. There were so many sheep and more than a few goats in the herd that the shepherd had no choice but to manage it by turning the church into a corporation.

As everyone knows, churches, when they become corporations have to operate like a corporation not a church. In the world, people in corporations are always looking for position and leaders exert control. The only way one can be successful in climbing the corporate ladder is to be loyal to the corporation and the corporate president. As was rightly taught (in my church) in early 2007, the church is not a corporation and should not be operated as such. ‘Tis sad for me, that we do not appear to follow the Biblical teachings oft presented.

[stfassisi]

“”But it is incorrect to imply that there is something wrong with the people owning the Word (if that is your intention).””

I'm not implying that,and I would add that I'm certain that there are many,many loving non-catholic Christians who read the Bible and love others unconditionally,thus being guided by the Holy Spirit.

That said,there are others who read the Bible and use there OWN or follow other heretical beliefs that the church has condemned throughout the centuries, such as denying the Divinity of Christ.

What you seemingly fail to recognize is that if the Church did not have singular authority through the centuries that these types of heresies would have run rampant.

After the reformation all of these heresies and more continue to come back and grow because there is no singular authority in protestantism other than private interpretations of the Bible.

Keep in mind ,Dear friend, that I'm not blaming the Bible.

I'm saying this is due to lack of authority regarding consistent interpretations leading to errors in Faith and Morals

“”Would one be amazed that a corporate structure, given fifteen hundred years of sole and monopolistic power, and having full control of it's destiny, with power over kings and countries, their armies and their peoples, might become corrupted by those who rise to the top of such a structure?””

I think you have been sadly influenced and misinformed by enlightenment and early American though and history

Here is an extremely accurate article written By LT Col James Bogle

http://distributist.blogspot.com/2007/01/states-obligation-to-recognize-and.html

“”The printing press put the Holy Word in the hands of God's people for the first time ever.””

There were also many well documented errors in the those translated KJV’s as well.

Take a look at the errors that continue to this day

The battle for the Bible
http://www.worldmag.com/articles/424

Changing God's words
http://www.worldmag.com/articles/10357

Rewritten Bible banishes saints
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/03/15/nbible15.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/03/15/ixhome.html

Publisher plans gender-neutral version of Bible
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/01/28/new-bible.htm

‘Largest’ Christian Publisher Zondervan, is a Division of HarperCollins, which Publishes the Satanic Bible
http://truthinheart.com/Zondervan.htm

These are a bit old from my days working on the dangers of the New Age Movement, but you get the gist,and the printing of Bible's is not as rosy as one might think

[Quester]

The Bible is not ever shown as something given to each individual of the community.

It is shown that it is God's intention that His people be blessed by the daily reading/hearing of His Word.

Deuteronomy 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.

8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

[Campion]

This tradition thing is another it turns out that you and I seem to literally HATE.

You must hate Paul then: Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. -- 2 Thess 2:15

But it's good that you've put your finger on what you HATE. Because threads like this are really a lot more about hating Catholics and everything connected with Catholicism, than they are about loving Jesus or truth. You have spoken wisely.

[Campion]

A 4th model is described, “The Godward Church” – A group of people gather in a room. One of them stands up, opens a Bible and says, “This is what God says.” He explains the text and how it should affect one’s life. The church sings, prays, shares the bread and the cup, and goes home. Not very market savvy. Not very exciting. But the Word of God comes with power, the Holy Spirit, and deep conviction. Consciences are pierced, lives changed. People go home worshiping God by hating sin, loving one another, and proclaiming the gospel to their neighbors. A Godward church is a worshiping church, which will make it a supernaturally attractive church; distinct like salt and bright like fire. The people begin to look like – sons and daughters of God. That’s most attractive – and it starts with hearing the Word of God.

What you describe is exactly the outline of a Catholic Mass, and has been since the second century or before. It almost reads like a paraphrase of a description of a 2nd C. Catholic liturgy by St. Justin Martyr (d. AD 150).

[Campion]

There's only one verse in the entire NT wherein TRADITION IS REMOTELY positive.

1 Cor 11:2
1 Cor 11:23ff
2 Thess 2:15

You're wrong. Again. The more funny colors you use, the more ridiculous your posts get.

[RobRoy]

>>You must hate Paul then: Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. — 2 Thess 2:15<<

I am talking about culture. The traditions Paul talks of I strongly support.

Communion is one that comes to mind.

>>Because threads like this are really a lot more about hating Catholics and everything connected with Catholicism, than they are about loving Jesus or truth.<<

I disagree. There are things I hate about Catholicism. There is no doubt about that. It is along the lines of my hatred of the Christian flag that my church had, and the oath that went with it.

I do not hate Catholicism. I DO hate Mormonism. But even there, it is Mormonisim I hate, not Mormons. It is the false beliefs and what they do to people.