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To: roamer_1

Most excellent post. Regarding the corporate structure and its consequences, true for any church.

Many churches largely fits what has been described as a “Traditional Church”, within the evangelical landscape. This is a church which appeals to the world with programs and door to door evangelism; concludes sermons by inviting people to walk the aisle or accept Jesus; proclaiming that Jesus longs for a personal relationship with each person and all one must do is to invite Him into his heart.

This model, along with those describing “Seeker Sensitive” and “Missional”, starts with a secondary question – “How can we reach the world?” This is a good question, but it’s not primary. The primary question is, “How do we worship?” Worship is primary because God is primary. Programs that only give the illusion of honoring God exist because churches lose their primary focus – which is to be on the Lord, not His creation.

A 4th model is described, “The Godward Church” – A group of people gather in a room. One of them stands up, opens a Bible and says, “This is what God says.” He explains the text and how it should affect one’s life. The church sings, prays, shares the bread and the cup, and goes home. Not very market savvy. Not very exciting. But the Word of God comes with power, the Holy Spirit, and deep conviction. Consciences are pierced, lives changed. People go home worshiping God by hating sin, loving one another, and proclaiming the gospel to their neighbors. A Godward church is a worshiping church, which will make it a supernaturally attractive church; distinct like salt and bright like fire. The people begin to look like – sons and daughters of God. That’s most attractive – and it starts with hearing the Word of God.

(I’ve taken the preceding church descriptions from a report from 9Marks located at http://involve.9marks.org/site/DocServer/2007_Report_Card.pdf?docID=281).

Most churches were once small flocks with shepherds. As the pastors taught the Word and fed the sheep, some small flocks grew to become mega-churches. These mega-churches often grew to the point and by methods such that there was no longer a flock, but a herd. There were so many sheep and more than a few goats in the herd that the shepherd had no choice but to manage it by turning the church into a corporation.

As everyone knows, churches, when they become corporations have to operate like a corporation not a church. In the world, people in corporations are always looking for position and leaders exert control. The only way one can be successful in climbing the corporate ladder is to be loyal to the corporation and the corporate president. As was rightly taught (in my church) in early 2007, the church is not a corporation and should not be operated as such. ‘Tis sad for me, that we do not appear to follow the Biblical teachings oft presented.


534 posted on 04/11/2008 12:10:06 PM PDT by Manfred the Wonder Dawg (Test ALL things, hold to that which is True.)
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To: Manfred the Wonder Dawg
A 4th model is described, “The Godward Church” – A group of people gather in a room. One of them stands up, opens a Bible and says, “This is what God says.” He explains the text and how it should affect one’s life. The church sings, prays, shares the bread and the cup, and goes home. Not very market savvy. Not very exciting. But the Word of God comes with power, the Holy Spirit, and deep conviction. Consciences are pierced, lives changed. People go home worshiping God by hating sin, loving one another, and proclaiming the gospel to their neighbors. A Godward church is a worshiping church, which will make it a supernaturally attractive church; distinct like salt and bright like fire. The people begin to look like – sons and daughters of God. That’s most attractive – and it starts with hearing the Word of God.

What you describe is exactly the outline of a Catholic Mass, and has been since the second century or before. It almost reads like a paraphrase of a description of a 2nd C. Catholic liturgy by St. Justin Martyr (d. AD 150).

538 posted on 04/11/2008 1:41:16 PM PDT by Campion
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To: Manfred the Wonder Dawg
As everyone knows, churches, when they become corporations have to operate like a corporation not a church.

I do agree with all you said.

It is unfortunate that moments after the pews are installed, and the sign is hung up, every church must compete corporately. It is all about getting butts in the pews, to some degree. How they do that without stepping upon their calling makes all the difference. Unfortunately (for them), their calling will invariably be short and ignominious if they do not do it right.

But along with that, I might observe that the variance and focus of different churches are also part of what I would suppose is God's plan for the Protestants- Some people can only digest milk, while those more experienced crave the meat. I can tell you surely that many I have met came from more mainstream lackluster churches to the one I frequent craving Spirit, their training wheels having been removed.

So it is not necessarily a bad thing to have "get 'em in the pews" churches out there, for their milk does serve a purpose.

552 posted on 04/11/2008 4:27:11 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit.)
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To: Manfred the Wonder Dawg; All

A 4th model is described, “The Godward Church” – A group of people gather in a room. One of them stands up, opens a Bible and says, “This is what God says.” He explains the text and how it should affect one’s life. The church sings, prays, shares the bread and the cup, and goes home. Not very market savvy. Not very exciting. But the Word of God comes with power, the Holy Spirit, and deep conviction. Consciences are pierced, lives changed. People go home worshiping God by hating sin, loving one another, and proclaiming the gospel to their neighbors. A Godward church is a worshiping church, which will make it a supernaturally attractive church; distinct like salt and bright like fire. The people begin to look like – sons and daughters of God. That’s most attractive – and it starts with hearing the Word of God.

= = =

I posted a thread a year or 3 ago . . . about

FAITH COMES BY HEARING . . . HOSANNA MUSIC SPONSORED EFFORT TO GET SCRIPTURE INTO THE HANDS OF ALL THE UNREACHED PEOPLE GROUPS ASAP via hand crank MP3 players.

A big missions problem has been that translating Scriptures and handing out a lot of texts didn’t help a whole lot in a tribe or people group where few to no one was literate.

Their policy is to ask WHO THE MAN OF PEACE is in the village. Then, they make a contract with the man of peace. The Man of Peace agrees to host a group to listen to 30 minutes worth of Scripture AND THEN DISCUSS WHAT THEY HEARD for 30 minutes—once a week. IIRC, that’s about it. There’s very little other requirements.

Then the distrubtors will return in maybe 6 months or however long to check on how things are going. I think in about 60% of the cases or more, SPONTANEOUS CHURCHES HAVE SPRUNG UP AND MANY ARE PLANTING OTHER CHURCHES.

ALL the organization and style of service is derived from Scripture filtered through their own cultural ethos. The churches are flourishing and God is working miracles in theirm midst—ALL QUITE SPONTANEOUSLY ACCORDING TO HOLY SPIRIT

and certainly without any heavy idolatrous powermongering handedness from ROME, or SPRINGFIELD or MILWAUKEE . . . etc.

To quote their strategy from their website:

Thursday, April 3, 2008

Pastors agree; Audio Bibles are getting church-goers engaged in God’s Word. Nationally recognized research organizations found that 65 percent of adults who identified themselves as “Bible readers” haven’t read the entire New Testament. Another survey of 500 pastors revealed that “lack of time” was the No. 1 reason why Christians aren’t reading their Bibles.
read more

Audio Bibles Have a Global ImpactAudio Bibles connect modern technology to the Word of God, with the timeless result of sharing God’s Word with people who hunger for spiritual knowledge. Faith Comes By Hearing has been at the forefront of this movement, working tirelessly to compile the largest catalog of Audio Bibles in the world with ongoing translations being worked on as we speak. Thanks to these efforts, listeners from around the world can now hear the Scriptures in pristine digital recordings in 283 languages. This technology allows us to have Audio Bible listening programs in 51 countries. Children and villagers who have not learned to read can follow along and begin learning written words. Audio Bible downloads provide global access to this collection of Bible translations, and make it possible to let the Word of God pour out to the people of every culture, in languages they can understand.

Audio Bibles offer a solution to the fact that over half the people on the planet today cannot read and therefore do not have a means for understanding the Word of God. By taking advantage of the conveniences offered in today’s electronic world, the Bible MP3 and Bible on CD are shared using CD, DVD players, and computers and the Bible can now be carried out onto the missionary field using electronic playback devices with multiple power sources such as solar power. Through these methods, the Word of God is expanding into the farthest reaches of the world and being shared in audio format for the benefit of all.

Bible MP3 formats are available as Audio Bible downloads and Bible podcasts. The Bible online uses digital audio technology to compress music or sound files into much smaller files with little or no loss of sound quality. The entire Bible is transferred into a tiny digital file, and made available as a complete MP3 Bible download or as a Bible on CD. In addition to the Bible online, Faith Comes By Hearing offers other audio products and services. There are BibleSticks, which are MP3 players loaded with the entire New Testament. For kids, there is the children’s Bible version called the KIDZ BibleStick which has Old and New Testament stories, harmonized Gospels and children’s Bible songs.

Even those individuals who prefer to read the Holy Scriptures realize that listening to Bible MP3 recordings at home or on the go provides many new opportunities to incorporate the Scriptures into their life and the lives of others around them. The technology offered from an online Bible allows listeners to hear God’s Word in a language that resonates best with them and is an effective tool for sharing the truth and power of God’s Word.

http://www.faithcomesbyhearing.com/

THEIR stats as a charity are here:

http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=6394


553 posted on 04/11/2008 4:47:05 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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