Mary and the Problem of Christian Unity

We are living in a remarkable age. As we approach the third millennium of Christianity in the year 2,000, we are watching a world in extremes. Amid the rapid onslaught of secularization and irreligion, we find hordes of people seeking solace in religion.

Amid the ravages of war and violence, we find the comfort and love of those who care for the poor and disadvantaged. Amid the lightning pace of modern life, we find souls searching for deeper meaning by retreating to monasteries and ashrams for solitude.

Two of the most powerful inspirations in late twentieth century Christianity are the drive toward greater unity among Christians of widely differing backgrounds (ecumenism) and the rapid growth of Marian devotion all around the world. This century has seen unprecedented efforts to bring together Christians who have been separated by misunderstanding and prejudice. And just when the ecumenical movement on a formal level seemed moribund, a new surge of grassroots ecumenism is finding ways of bringing together Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant Christians. Whatever the outcome of these efforts, the air of this last decade of the second millennium is filled with the scent of Christian unity. It seems that Christians are grasping every opportunity to reconcile their doctrinal differences and to find the sweet savor of "brothers dwelling together in unity" (Ps 133: 1).

If this is an age of ecumenism, it is equally a Marian era because no century since the birth of Christ has witnessed such an outpouring of devotion to the mother of Jesus. As many observers note, reported apparitions and locutions have multiplied, leading numerous Christians to an unprecedented devotion to the humble handmaiden of the Lord who was privileged to bring the world its Redeemer. In tandem with these grassroots movements, there is a monumental effort within the Catholic Church for the Pope to define as dogma Marian doctrines that have long been present in the Church (Mediatrix, Coredemptrix, Advocate). Whether or not the Supreme Pontiff of the Catholic Church decides to act, there is unlikely to be any diminishing of devotion to the mother of Jesus.

On the other hand, many non-Catholic Christians are mystified by such devotion to Mary. Some feel strangely drawn to honor her, but are afraid of falling into excessive focus on Mary to the exclusion of Jesus. To others, Marian devotion borders on the blasphemous. To still others, Catholics are idolaters. It is not an overstatement to say that no expression of historic Christianity has ever placed Mary in such a high position of honor as has the western Catholic tradition. And even though the Eastern Orthodox Churches have long honored Mary as the Mother of God, they do not have fully developed mariologies as the Western Church has.

The juxtaposition of ecumenical and Marian movements seems odd at best. On the surface, it appears that Mary would be the last subject chosen in an ecumenical dialogue. One might think that all the areas on which common agreement might be achieved should be addressed first, and then deal with the thorny question of Marian doctrine. Better to leave Mary until last. However, I am now convinced that questions about Mary must be addressed up front if any true ecumenism is ever to be achieved.

On a purely human level, no genuine friendship can ignore beliefs which are central to one party while those same beliefs are at best questionable to the other. Further, it is not completely honest for Catholics to pretend that Marian doctrines and devotions are not important and central to our lives. We ought to state openly that the Catholic faith does not allow the Church to ever change its defined dogmas about Mary. On the other hand, we must admit that not everything that goes on under the term Marian devotion is necessary or beneficial for the Church.

What can talk about Mary do to promote the cause of ecumenism? The answer depends on what we mean by ecumenism. One definition, and the one most common, sees ecumenism as a process of negotiation between different churches whereby one church gives up some aspect of its faith and the other partner relinquishes its claim to some of its distinctives. This process proceeds through a number of steps until a lowest common denominator is reached. The result is a church or some other official body which has a reduced form of faith and practice so that it might accommodate each respective member. This has largely been the pattern of ecumenism in the United States and the Western world for the better part of this century. In my judgment, such attempts have been a monumental failure. Mary cannot help with this type of ecumenism. The other definition of ecumenism is not founded on the concept of negotiation, but on seeking together the truth of God’s revelation. It begins with confessing that we don’t apprehend God’s truth completely, and that we must always seek to have the mind of Christ. In this conception, unity of heart and mind does not come from negotiated agreements, but from all parties, recognizing and embracing the objective truth of God.

It is a commonplace that married couples do not achieve success by each giving fifty percent to their marriage, but by each giving one hundred percent of themselves. In the same way, Christian unity comes from full commitment to searching for truth in a spirit of humility. Ecumenism begins with recognizing that unity already exists in God, that Christ is the center of unity, and that the Holy Spirit is the operative agent in bringing Christians together. Mary has everything to do with this kind of ecumenism.

Mary: The Sign of Unity ?
How can Mary help in promoting Christian unity? Many may feel the weight of disunity among Christians and long for a greater oneness in Christ, but can Mary really give us that greater oneness? Mary has been a source of division between Catholics and Protestants for a long time. What good will focusing on Mary bring? How can Christians be one when the very Marian devotions so precious to Catholics are viewed as idolatrous by Protestants? To human eyes, it seems that almost any other Christian doctrine would be better suited to bring unity than doctrines of Mary. And if we think of Mary just as a set of doctrines, that would be true. But Mary is more than a set of doctrines. Mary is a person. She lived her life on this earth as the mother of our Lord with her own character, mind, and idiosyncrasies. These things are true regardless of what we believe about her. Mary is what she is apart from our beliefs.

There is one unmistakable fact that we must remember about the real Mary—the Son of God lived in her womb for nine months. This is how Mary can be an instrument of unity. She united the Logos, the second person of the Trinity, with His human nature in her own body. Mary united more than any human being has ever united. She united God and man in the small confines of her own womb. Ponder this amazing reality. In Mary’s womb, heaven and earth were joined, not as two separate realities, but perfectly united in the one person of the Son of God. No wonder it says that "Mary treasured all these things and pondered them in her heart" (Lk 2:19). It is a reality beyond words.

Mary was the instrument of unity for the body of Jesus Christ and this is why Mary has long been thought of as mother of the church. The church is the body of Christ and Mary was the mother of Christ’s body, both physically and mystically. It is clear from Scripture that Jesus Christ is the key to unity among Christians, but the one Savior Jesus Christ would not be what he is—the perfect God-man—without Mary’s being the means of uniting His divine and human natures in one person.

Mary’s example of obedience and discipleship also forms the foundation of unity. Mary gave herself unreservedly to Jesus her Son. Every Christian wants to be an obedient disciple of our Lord and needs examples of obedience to do so. Mary was filled with grace, and this allowed her to listen to the commands of her God without delay. Mary was on earth what every Christian will become in heaven, filled with grace. Obedience means a readiness to say YES to God, a spirit of humility that says "Let it be" (fiat). Unity cannot be achieved through negotiation. It must come through obedience to the apostolic teaching given by Jesus to Paul and the other apostles. Without a willing spirit, we can never achieve God’s desire for unity. Mary’s life of obedience and discipleship calls us to unity with God through obedience.

The unity we seek is not human but divine. Its source is the divine life of Christ the Redeemer. It is that unity for which He prayed when He said, "Father, that they might be one." This kind of unity doesn’t come from each group of Christians giving up some belief or practice for the sake of unity; it comes from each individual or group submitting to the authority of Christ and from the work of the Holy Spirit bringing oneness where it is humanly impossible. Like salvation itself, Christian unity is not within the grasp of human power. All we can do is open ourselves to the ministry of the Spirit to produce the unity that is impossible through negotiation.

It is because Mary has been such a stumbling block for Christians that a fuller embracing of her person and role will achieve a greater unity than we might expect. If we view Mary apart from Jesus, then Mary cannot help us. Yet she was never meant to be seen apart from her Son. Just as the Magi found Jesus "with his mother" (Mt 2:11), so we find Mary involved with her divine Son, cooperating in His work and plan.

We cannot solve the problem of how to be one in Christ. Not by negotiation, not by one or the other side caving in. But God can solve our problems. God specializes in the impossible, just as He once said to Mary (Lk 1:37). If the Holy Spirit can form within the womb of the Virgin Mary a new entity—the unique Godman—then He surely can bring together Christians divided by history, suspicion and misinformation. Perhaps it’s time for us to stop trying to be unified and let God do what we have failed to do. No one can see precisely how this will happen, but we know it won’t happen without embracing the fullness of salvation in Christ himself.

Mary and the Unity of the Trinity
The unity we seek does not result from negotiated agreements. Our Christian unity must be founded on truth. It must be unity of heart and mind, a permanent oneness that is not shaken by the changing tides of custom and culture. The New Testament concept of unity is nothing less than union with the Holy Trinity. Jesus our Lord prayed that the oneness of His disciples would resemble and flow from the oneness experienced by the Father, Son and Holy Spirit: "That they all may be one, Father, as you are in me and I in you that they may also be one in us" (Jn 17:21). Jesus Christ does not want our unity to be like his and the Father’s. He wants our unity to be the same as He and the Father have.

Mary is both a sign and an instrument of the unity coming from the Holy Trinity because she bears a unique relation to each member. Let’s see how Mary is related to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. First, however, a word of caution. In A.D. 431 the ancient Christian Church defined Mary as the Mother of God because the Church wanted to protect the full divinity and humanity of Jesus Christ. This title, Mother of God (or better Godbearer), asserted that the child in Mary’s womb was nothing less than fully God and fully man. But the title Mother of God never has been nor should be interpreted to mean that Mary is the mother of the Trinity. Mary bears a distinct relation to each member of the Trinity, but she is not the mother of the Father, nor of the Holy Spirit.

Mary is the daughter of the Father.
When Mary proclaims herself the handmaiden of the Lord (Lk 1:38,48), she is declaring her filial obedience to the will of God. The love she has for the heavenly Father shows itself in her desire to be His vessel of bringing salvation to the world. What better sign of unity than this act of submission to the will of God? If we only follow Mary’s lead, we will find ourselves united in heart as her heart was united with the heavenly Father’s heart.

Mary did not negotiate with God, bargain with Him nor seek a compromise. She acknowledged her dependence on His grace and sought to perform His bidding. The will of the Father is unity for us who profess His Son. We will have unity only when we have submitted ourselves to the Father as Mary did.

Yet Mary is more than a sign. She is an instrument of unity. How is this true? Without her obedience the Savior would not have been born. Some Christians think that if Mary had refused Gabriel’s invitation to bear the Savior, God would have found another woman. There is not the slightest evidence in the New Testament for this view. Mary freely gave herself to God’s will of giving the world its Savior. By her instrumentality Mary united the Father to the world through His Son. In a profound sense, Mary united us to the Father through the Son. And that is how we will find a greater degree of unity today. By seeking to imitate her obedience and by seeking submission to the same Father through the Son she bore.

Mary is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit.
Gabriel proclaimed that the Holy Spirit would come over her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her (Lk 1:35). This is the language of marital love (see Ruth 3:9; Zeph 3:17). Mary was united with the third person of the Trinity in order to give flesh to the second person. As the spouse of the Holy Spirit, she gave her body to the service of God so that she might receive the fullness of God. And so Mary is a sign of how we too must seek to be filled with the Holy Spirit to do the will of God (cf Eph 5:18). It is the Holy Spirit who brings Jesus Christ today just as He brought the divine Christ to the womb of Mary (cf. Jn 14:17,18). When we are filled with the Spirit as Mary was, we are united to Jesus and we become more united with one another. Mary’s union with the Holy Spirit brought us the Son who poured out the Spirit that we might be united with both Son and Spirit. Her union brings about our union.

Mary is the mother of the Son.
Through her, Christ’s divine and human natures were united into the one person that would save us from our sins. As Jesus’ mother, Mary signals that our unity will only be in and through her Son. When Paul says that Jesus was "born of a woman ... that we might receive the adoption" (Gal 4:4,5), the apostle implies that true unity comes only from being members of the same family—the same family in which Jesus is the firstborn Son.

We cannot be members of many different families that have a tolerance for one another’s beliefs and worship. No doubt tolerance for cultural and historical differences is essential, but that is still not the New Testament ideal of unity. Unity means being in the same family as Jesus ("one Lord"), having the same content of belief ("one faith"), living in the same Church body ("one baptism"). Only then can we be sure that we have the same "God and Father of all, who is over all, through all and in all." See Ephesians 4:4-6.

Mary: God’s Woman of the Hour
Now is the time for unity among Christians. As we approach the beginning of the third millennium since Christ’s birth, we see an almost unprecedented call to unity. Christian leaders the world over have caught a glimpse of Christ’s will that "they may be one, Father, as you are in me and I in you" (Jn 17:21). The desire for unity is laudable and ought to be pursued with vigor. Yet the only unity worth pursuing, the only unity that will last is the unity that already exists in the Holy Trinity. This kind of unity is not something we achieve. It is something given to us as a gift. This unity is infused in our souls and expressed by oneness of mind and heart (doctrine and love).

Truth without love is barren and sterile. Unity without truth is empty and fruitless. Jesus was a kind and compassionate man who proclaimed the truth. The Lord who wept over Jerusalem’s obstinacy (see Mt 23:37-39), and who was moved with compassion over the "sheep without a shepherd," (Mk 6:34) is the same Lord who said that the truth of His words would not pass away (Lk 21:33). If Jesus is our Lord, then we must follow with equal vigor His truth and love.

Insistence on truth at the expense of unity will not do, nor will embracing unity at the expense of truth. Truth and unity are equally ultimate. Yet even now, we must realize the impossibility of reconciling truth and unity with human schemes and ingenuity. The only way to have unity is by having unity in Truth. The truth that brings unity is Jesus Himself who is "the way, the truth, and the life" (Jn 14:6). The truth Jesus gives is the complete teaching of His will as expressed in and through the Church of the apostles.

The Church is Jesus’ idea and institution; it is part of the will of Jesus. And it is Christ’s Church that wrote and gave us the Holy Scriptures and the truths of faith passed down from generation to generation. Obedience to Jesus means obedience to Jesus’ Church. It is no accident that Christians have spoken of the Church as our mother for centuries. Classic Christianity spoke this way: the one who wants God as a Father must have the Church as a mother. Why is it necessary? Because Jesus is nurturing our faith through our mother, the Church. And that is why Mary is so important.

Jesus is our model but we must remember that even our Lord learned some of His commitment to truth and compassion from His mother. All we have to assume is that Mary lived her own words to see that this is true. She loved truth enough to consent to Gabriel’s invitation to bear the Son of God (Lk 1:38). She was filled with compassion enough to see God’s "mercy from generation to generation" (Lk 1:50). Mary was a woman of truth and love. Her commitment to God’s truth and love lead her to the unity of the Son of God. Her submissive heart that willingly embraced God’s truth and her devoted love for God brought about the unity of Christ’s human and divine natures into the perfect unity of His one divine person.

So Mary’s commitment to truth and unity is both our model and the means of our unity. She modeled our path to unity by her embrace of the divine Son within her womb. We must embrace Him too. Mary is also the means of our having unity because without her act of submission to God we would not have the one Savior who can unify us.

It is time to lay down our defensive postures, to lay aside our personal and political agendas, to give up our dearest visions for the Church and to embrace the complete will of Christ. I believe that if we could simply be like Mary on that day when Gabriel came to her, we could then say with her, "Let it be done to us according to your word" (Lk 1:38). Perhaps, she could say with us:

Lord, we are your servants.
Heal our divisions and
Let Your Son reign as Lord within.
Let Your Word dwell within us
And make us one.

Do you join your brethren in declaring absolutely that NO Catholics worship Mary or the pope?

What is the possible relevance of that? Would you care to "declare absolutely" that NO Baptists get drunk, slap their kids around, steal from their employers, or sleep with people other than their spouses?

Of course not. Catholics are all sinners. Baptists are all sinners. That shouldn't come as a surprise.

So the question ought to be not, "What does one confused or kooky Catholic somewhere do that I can dredge up?" but "What does the Catholic Church teach?"

Does the Catholic Church teach that the Pope is to be worshipped? Nope, certainly not.

Does the Catholic Church teach that Mary is equal to God? Nope. In fact, perhaps the most "Marian" saint of all, St. Louis Marie de Montfort, began his book on Mary by describing her as "next to God, nothing".

Does the Catholic Church teach that Mary ought to be given the sort of worship which by right belongs to God? Nope.

Three strikes, you're out.

Incidentally, most of the decrees of the Council of Trent don't even mention Mary.

I didn’t realize so many RC’s hereon had such a hobby of being WRONG so often. Curious, that.

1. Not keeping score or points. God is. He says blessed are you when men revile etc. I just note when such a blessed event has occurred and thank ya’ll for contributing to my heavenly points. I don’t know how God calculates such things but I believe He means what He says about such things and consider myself blessed.

2. I often don’t know whether to laugh or cry over such outrageous statements as seem to routinely tumble out of the RC edifice . . . . but I can count on The Lord to reward for enduring assaults by folks who make a mockery of His Word and His priorities.

3. God knows I don’t hate anyone on FR. And I certainly don’t hate even the fiercest and most irrational of the RC reps hereon. Hate is just not something I’ve tended to give mental air time and emotional energy to.

4. Besides, folks of all stripes are still made in God’s image regardless of the hideous damage they may have been doing to that image over the years. Loving people makes the most sense as well as being the 2nd most important commandment.

5. There are gamey aspects to the Protty/RC exchanges hereon. But what you described would not be anything of interest, to me and certainly not a game.

The Holy Spirit is my teacher. I have the gift of discernment from Him. If you are Born Again and have the Spirit in you, you couldn't sit under Rev Wrights teaching for 20 years and not know he is teaching error. If you hear falsehood, you know it and when you can't tell the difference you say "I don't know", or "I'm not sure". Things like Baptism, Jesus was immersed in a river. You are commanded to be Baptized, but Baptism isn't what saves you. The thief on the cross wasn't Baptized and did no good works and yet was in paradise with Jesus. We are supposed to do good works and be Baptized as a public declaration of who we are in Christ. It has nothing to do with denomination, or how many times you go to church, or if you tithe, or give to charity. Age of salvation= when you know right from wrong. The Jews celebrated the 13th year for that. No one but the child can say for sure, but if the child ASKED to be Baptized and ASKS to Have his/her sins forgiven, then who am I to disagree. That is different from mom and dad pushing the child down an aisle at a certain age. I think( not sure), the Methodists give you a card to sign at 12 or something. Baptizing a baby does nothing, but their is a dedication to God by the parents. Has nothing to do with the child. It just states the parents will dedicate the child to God. A few years later, you may never see them at church again, but the child isn't saved by sprinkling. A child belongs to God and is a gift to the parents and is on loan. The Parents are responsible for the child's upbringing and will be judged on what they do and say to God's property. A child that dies before he/she is called by God goes to Heaven in his/her innocence. If a child hears God calling and refuses to give himself to God, that is a dangerous thing. God will woo His bride, but He also can stop calling. Going to Hell comes from willful rebellion to God. Since we are Born in sin, we all sin as our nature. That is why parents must raise a child. If a child isn't raised, they will grow up to be selfish thieves and murderers. That is human nature.

The Bible says that we are ALL saints and priests if we are saved. If my cousin wants to confess Jesus as Savior at a weekend Bar-B-Q, Then they can confess in front of me or my family and they are saved. If they have a wreck and die on the way home, they have salvation. I don't have to have robes and collars to wittiness a repentance of sin and declaration of faith.

My authority comes from God, just as it did to John, Paul, Peter, Luke, Matthew, etc. My caveat comes with the warning that teachers who teach falsehood will be judged more harshly. If I'm not sure of something then I would ask for the Spirit to make it clear, and if not, I say "I'm not sure". Just because a guy in a collar says I'm wrong, means nothing. I listen to what he says, but the matter isn't settled until the Holy Spirit makes it crystal clear. There are many subjects that I would be hesitant to talk about to someone, especially someone who is just starting to learn, but the things I know,.....I know. Just as the Scripture says, "This is me, not God," They were able to say it was more advantageous to be unmarried to do what they were doing, but if temptation was too strong, by all means, get married. That doesn't mean God decreed that they were to be celibate, they made it clear it was them talking. Just as it was told to Timothy that a little wine was good for the stomach doesn't mean God says you can be a drunk. It was a letter to help him and plainly not "God Breathed".

There is absolutely nothing wrong with teachers teaching the Scripture, but I have sat under many that couldn't answer the most basic questions and who, when they spoke, were plainly teaching error and it usually had something to do with church doctrine, not the written Word. I have also sat under some of the finest teachers, IMHO, in America. You can tell they have explored Scripture and had the answers to some of the most vexing questions revealed to them by God, not at seminary. I attend a Baptist church, but I am a Christian, not a Baptist. I just find the Baptists and their teaching more in line with what I believe the Scripture says. We have disagreements, but I don't want to be told, "Who are you to question so and so that has taught for 40 years?" He could have taught wrong for 40 years.

The reason I'm not a Catholic is because I believe what they teach is error, so much so, to the point of being a cult. That doesn't mean a Catholic can't know the Truth, or can't go to Heaven, but it usually ends up with them defending the Catholic dogma and has nothing to do with Jesus. It is dangerous to pray to Mary( what the thread started as) and other relics. It is strictly forbidden in Scripture. I don't really care to discuss some Bishops writing from the 14th century over some topic that is plainly stated in the Bible. It would be like me trying to cure fever with leeches because thats what they believed back then. I find it stimulating to discuss topics with knowledgeable people and weigh their answers with what I read in Scripture. Most of the stuff doesn't have anything to do with SALVATION, however. It is usually over side issues that are good to know but aren't critical.

Once you understand God as a Father, then you can understand how you would feel if your Son Gave His life on the cross in a horrible death, and then someone comes along and is praying to statues and icons. It is blasphemy, plain and simple. Just picture your son dying in Iraq and some liberal saying he is as patriotic as your son while throwing feces on your son's grave. You wouldn't be happy. That just infuriates Catholics, but a simple reading of the Bible will clear it up for them. Hanging on to traditions of men is EXACTLY what Jesus came to condemn. That is why we have the Bible in the first place. The reason Luther broke from the church was because he was able to read Scripture and compare to what the teaching of the church was. It's no different today.

As far as my children being bastards, that has been said to me at least 3 times because I won't convert to Catholicism and force them to be raised Catholic. I suppose the mafia were good Catholic boys with a ticket to Heaven because they belonged to the Catholic church. The denomination won't save you. I've been told Joesph Smith is equal to Jesus, and if I don't speak in tongues, I don't have the Holy Spirit. And yes, I live in East Texas and have been told that I need to handle a poisonous snake to see if I get bit. You would be surprised at the people that REALLY believe different things and can back it up with Scripture. Just remember, Satan came to Jesus to trick Him in the wilderness and quoted Scripture to the Man who wrote it. Anything can be misused and misunderstood. Catholics are free to pray to Mary, if they want to, I'm just saying it's an insult to God. The Bible tells us to love God with all our hearts, souls, and minds. Mary was a willing vessel, but she is not God. Our God is a jealous God.

“”In order to make a measurement one must have a standard of weights and measures. That standard must be the Bible, having found by it's Prophecy that it is surely of God, and therefore it's Word can be equally trusted.””

By your measure ,I suppose that you must find it really amazing that Christianity was able to spread through extreme persecution without the fully canonized Bible for hundreds of years

The reality IS that God gave His Gospel orally first. The Apostles gave it to others orally first, who shared it with the community at large. This was written down and shared with the future communities. The Bible is not ever shown as something given to each individual of the community. If you want to understand how the early Church did things, you would know that they complied with the leaders of the community.Read Acts of the Apostles,God did not hand out scrolls to everyone

I might add that even the missionaries of today spread Christianity through loving others rather than having Bible in hand and shouting out Bible verses.

Christ's love abiding in us through acts of charity and loving our neighbors moves hearts more than words do.

Love must come first in order to be able to teach the gospel NOT the other way around, and this,Dear friend, is the foundation of Christianity that our Blessed Lord made SEEN before the good book.

I wish you a Blessed day!

The Bible is not ever shown as something given to each individual of the community

I suppose it depends if one is using the DAFFYNITIONS of the RC edifice or the normal definitions more reality based Christian groups use.

If we use the WORD OF GOD as described IN The WORD OF GOD, then the above statement is wholesale false AS

THE WORD OF GOD makes abundantly clear.

The RC edifice Rubber Bible seems to read: Also, one would seem to think that Holy Spirit took a vacation from reminding, bringing to mind Scripture that had been received by hearing . . . EXCEPT WHEN ACCOMPANIED BY THE DOCTRINES AND TRADITIONS OF MEN THROUGH THE RC MAGICSTERICAL AND TONS OF MARYOLATRY via the same charlatans.

One seems also expected to believe that absolutely no one was literate enough to take notes in meetings. Nor copy letters distributed . . . that only the RC magicsterical's power mongering lock on Scripture 400 years later offered any source of Scripture at all. What balderdash.

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Act 11:1 Soon the news reached the apostles and other believers* in Judea that the Gentiles had received the word of God.

The following week almost the entire city turned out to hear them preach the word of the Lord.

Act 15:35 Paul and Barnabas stayed in Antioch to assist many others who were teaching and preaching the word of the Lord there.

Act 16:32 Then they shared the word of the Lord with him and all who lived in his household.

Act 20:32 "And now I entrust you to God and the word of his grace--his message that is able to build you up and give you an inheritance with all those he has set apart for himself.

1Cr 14:4 A person who speaks in tongues is strengthened personally in the Lord, but one who speaks a word of prophecy strengthens the entire church

2Cr 4:2 We reject all shameful and underhanded methods. We do not try to trick anyone, and we do not distort the word of God. We tell the truth before God, and all who are honest know that.

Eph 6:17 Put on salvation as your helmet, and take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

1Th 1:8 And now the word of the Lord is ringing out from you to people everywhere, even beyond Greece, for wherever we go we find people telling us about your faith in God. We don't need to tell them about it,

1Th 2:13 And we will never stop thanking God that when we preached his message to you, you didn't think of the words we spoke as being just our own. You accepted what we said as the very word of God--which, of course, it was. And this word continues to work in you who believe.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word of God. Be persistent, whether the time is favorable or not. Patiently correct, rebuke, and encourage your people with good teaching.

2Ti 2:15 Work hard so God can approve you. Be a good worker, one who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly explains the word of truth.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word of God. Be persistent, whether the time is favorable or not. Patiently correct, rebuke, and encourage your people with good teaching.

Hbr 4:12 For the word of God is full of living power. It is sharper than the sharpest knife, cutting deep into our innermost thoughts and desires. It exposes us for what we really are.

1Pe 1:23 For you have been born again. Your new life did not come from your earthly parents because the life they gave you will end in death. But this new life will last forever because it comes from the eternal, living word of God.

1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord will last forever."* And that word is the Good News that was preached to you.

1Pe 2:8 And the Scriptures also say, "He is the stone that makes people stumble, the rock that will make them fall."* They stumble because they do not listen to God's word or obey it, and so they meet the fate that has been planned for them.

1Jo 2:5 But those who obey God's word really do love him. That is the way to know whether or not we live in him. [The Rubber Bible version is: 1Jo 2:5 But those who obey God's word; AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, ALL THE DOGMATIC PONTIFICATIONS, ORDERS, RITUALS, MARYOLATRY AND OTHER EDIFICE IDOLATRIES AND BLASPHEMIES OF THE RC MAGICSTERICAL) really do love THE ONE AND ONLY POLITICAL POWER-MONGERNG EDIFICE WORTHY TO BE LOVED, That is the way to know whether or not we live AS WORTHY SERFS OF THE RC MAGICSTERICAL. However, only then, all you can count on is purgatory . . . unless sufficient prayers are paid for or donated by sufficient numbers of your fans. Then the Magicsterical MIGHT consent to give you a transfer ticket o Heaven proper.]

1Jo 2:14 I have written to you, children, because you have known the Father. I have written to you who are mature because you know Christ, the one who is from the beginning. I have written to you who are young because you are strong with God's word living in your hearts, and you have won your battle with Satan.

Rev 19:13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and his title was the Word of God.

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus, for proclaiming the word of God. And I saw the souls of those who had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their forehead or their hands. They came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

I've never heard a sermon mention Catholicism before. What I'm talking about is Christianity 101. You don't pray to idols. Mary can't help you. A piece of bone can't help you. Jesus is our advocate and no one else.

This isn't ignorance of the Catholic faith, it's your ignorance of the Word of God. You have been TOLD by the church that it is praying to a friend for assistance, but God doesn't need an intercessor between you and Him. It is CLEAR in the Bible that you are to pray to God in the name above all names, Jesus.

There is not one instance of any of the apostles or Jesus invoking any other name in Scripture. Jesus Himself said to pray "Our Father, which art in Heaven". It is a tradition of men and in ERROR. It has evolved into Mary had no other children when she clearly DID, and now she is supposed to have just ascended to Heaven? Made up myth! That is Mary worship made up out of someones imagination.

INDEED. THANKS. GOOD POINTS.

This whole thread began with one of the most outrageously illogical; outrageously absurd notions I could have imagined in my worst nightmare. It's mind boggling that anyone would want to be associated with it unless they have a masochistic obsession with humiliating themselves.

It's akin to saying something like . . . THE ONLY WAY FOR UNITY AND PEACE BETWEEN JIHADI'S AND CHRISTENDOM IS FOR CHRISTIANS TO ACCEPT THE SACRAMENT OF BEHEADING AS THE GLORIOUS LIGHT-BRINGING RITUAL THAT IT IS."

It must take some collection of demonically influenced political powermongering magicsterical to come up with such overtly absurd irrational nonsense. Oppressed, possessed individuals just wouldn't be able to be THAT absurd and irrational--it takes a collection of such, evidently.

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