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To: annalex; Dr. Eckleburg; Mad Dawg; suzyjaruki; 1000 silverlings; wmfights; HarleyD

“It does not address the issue of venerating her or any saint, however insignificant in relative terms.”

Mary says, (Luk 1:48) “For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.”

Later on in Jesus’ ministry, that prophecy comes true when a woman in the crowd who has witnessed one of Jesus’ miracles says, (Luk 11:27) “And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed [is] the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.”

Jesus responds, not by denying that Mary is blessed, but says in comparative terms those are greater blessed that hear and obey.

Luk 11:28 “But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.”

Jesus uses the same comparative formula concerning the righteousness of the Pharisees and the person of John the Baptist. He does not deny that the Pharisees are righteous, He says that kingdom righteousness exceeds that. He does not deny that John the Baptist is considered great, He says that those of the kingdom are greater.

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

“(4 and 5) start with a correct statement that angelic life of the heavenly dwellers such as Mary and the saints differs radically from our life on earth. From that it doesn’t follow that all saints in heaven are the same and lack individuality, or are incapable of interceding for us. The proper conclusion is the opposite: that since the scripture shows angels interceding and having diverse roles, the saints who are like angels have different roles and intercede also.”

Ephesians 3:14-15, “For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named”

There is only one family of believers and only one parent, God the Father; all others are His children. There is no scriptural warrant for any one other than Jesus or the Holy Spirit interceding in heaven with the Father for mankind, in fact the only person mentioned in the bible whose ministry is helping us to pray is the Holy Spirit.


894 posted on 04/07/2008 11:40:18 AM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg; Mad Dawg; suzyjaruki; 1000 silverlings; wmfights; HarleyD
Jesus responds [in Luke 11], not by denying that Mary is blessed, but says in comparative terms those are greater blessed that hear and obey.

In fact, He does not say that anyone is greater than Mary, He simply says that Mary should be venerated along with others who hear and keep the Word -- that is, Him, -- but not for the physiological aspects of her motherhood. This is a prooftext for veneration of all saints, Mary chief among them. At least, this is how the Church reads this scripture; I am aware that alternative readings as well as misreadings, exist, but, again, my question is not to explain to me what the Protestant range of interpretations of the scripture is, but where the contradiction of the Catholic mariology is with the scripture.

There is no scriptural warrant for any one other than Jesus or the Holy Spirit interceding in heaven with the Father for mankind

First, there is a warrant: Mary intercedes in John 2, Timothy in 1 Tim 2 (the shopworn Protestant false prooftext for Mary not mediating) is instructed to offer prayers of intercession for all men; Jairus intercedes for his daughter. It seems that if Mary or Timothy can intercede on earth, they should be able to intercede in heaven, just like the angels do throughout scripture.

Second, I do not ask why sola scriptura people (who depend on warrants for chewing gum, apparently) do not venerate saints, I ask where Catholic praxis is contradicted in the scripture.

898 posted on 04/07/2008 12:04:42 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: blue-duncan
in comparative terms those are greater blessed that hear and obey.

Two problems: (1) The one word "rather" gets a mighty specific interpretation in your paraphrase, non impossible but not necessarily in the original.

(2)Shall we argue that Mary did not hear and obey?

Have you read the conversation so far? We've already looked at and discussed that text, and I've offered an interpretation which does not violence to the text. Not that we're done, of course.

Mary says, (Luk 1:48) “For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.”

So it's your contention that They will call her blessed but they will be wrong to do so? The textual tradition is incomplete and the full text is:

“For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed, darn it.”

914 posted on 04/07/2008 1:13:49 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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