Haven't Anti-Mormons Completely Destroyed the Credibility of Mormonism?

jefflindsay.com ^ | Nov. 5, 2006 | Jeff Lindsay

[restornu]

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Haven't Anti-Mormons Completely Destroyed the Credibility of Mormonism?

It is a common myth that anti-Mormon attacks have completely overwhelmed the intellectual position of Latter-day Saints, leaving us with nothing but blind faith in "warm feelings" we get about the Church. The portrayal of Mormons as idiots without any intellectual foundation in our religion is a common caricature based on deceptive marketing. With the flood of anti-Mormon arguments, books, pamphlets, movies, and Web sites, it is easy to think that Mormonism would be completely devastated if only 10% of all the things said against it were true.

I once met a new convert, a college student, in my town of Appleton, Wisconsin, who showed me a couple of thick books loaded with accusations against the Church. She was upset and angry and planning to leave the Church. I tried to calm her down, and one by one, we discussed the arguments that were bothering her. Once one attack was diffused, she raised another, and another, and I think I helped her see that there was little merit to what she had raised so far, and that the bulk of the anti-Mormon material was truly deceptive. Then she just dug in her heels and said, "Well, it doesn't matter. If only 10% of all the things in here are true, that's enough to destroy the Church!" She left the Church, and if she had lived 2,000 years ago as an early Christian convert, I'm sure she would have left the Church then, too. After all, if only 10% of the things that the anti-Christians said were true, then that would be enough to destroy Christianity, right? (Oh, how I wish modern education would help people understand that critical thinking means more than just thinking of criticism.)

Anti-Mormon literature is often ignorant of what Latter-day Saints really believe and especially ignorant of LDS authors have written in response to anti-Mormon attacks. Many of the common attacks against the Church are regurgitated arguments from the nineteenth century, arguments which have been thoroughly and carefully treated by responsible LDS writers who do much more than just talk about some warm feeling in their hearts. But the anti-Mormon writers and speakers of today make it sound as if no Mormon has ever dared to respond to their awesome arguments, and that the Church can only retreat and hide when faced with an intellectual battle.

The flaws in some standard anti-Mormon arguments have been pointed out by a number of non-LDS writers. In one interesting example, two evangelical critics of the Church, Carl Mosser and Paul Owen, presented a paper at the 1997 Evangelical Theological Society Far West Annual Meeting, April 25, 1997 that warned the evangelical community about the impressive efforts of LDS scholars and criticized the blind approach of typical anti-Mormon literature. Their article, "Mormon Scholarship, Apologetics, and Evangelical Neglect: Losing the Battle and Not Knowing It?" (later published in Trinity Journal, Fall 1998, pp. 179-205), is one of the most intriguing non-LDS articles I've ever encountered from critics of the Church. (One of several copies of it on the Web can be found at ComeToZarahemla.org, Ben Spackman's Website, or Cephas Ministry.)

Mosser and Owen note that anti-LDS writers have ignored the work of some LDS scholars who are providing "robust defenses" of the LDS faith. In preparing their paper, Mosser and Owen did something that few critics have done: they have actually read a wide variety of LDS scholarly writings. As a result, they came to the following five conclusions:

The first [conclusion] is that there are, contrary to popular evangelical perceptions, legitimate Mormon scholars. We use the term scholar in its formal sense of "intellectual, erudite; skilled in intellectual investigation; trained in ancient languages." Broadly, Mormon scholarship can be divided into four categories: traditional, neo-orthodox, liberal and cultural. We are referring to the largest and most influential of the four categories--traditional Mormon scholars. It is a point of fact that the Latter-day Saints are not an anti-intellectual group like Jehovah's Witnesses. Mormons, in distinction to groups like JWs, produce work that has more than the mere appearance of scholarship. The second conclusion we have come to is that Mormon scholars and apologists (not all apologists are scholars) have, with varying degrees of success, answered most of the usual evangelical criticisms. Often these answers adequately diffuse particular (minor) criticisms. When the criticism has not been diffused the issue has usually been made much more complex.

A third conclusion we have come to is that currently there are, as far as we are aware, no books from an evangelical perspective that responsibility interact with contemporary LDS scholarly and apologetic writings. In a survey of twenty recent evangelical books criticizing Mormonism we found that none interact with this growing body of literature. Only a handful demonstrate any awareness of pertinent works. Many of the authors promote criticisms that have long been refuted; some are sensationalistic while others are simply ridiculous. A number of these books claim to be "the definitive" book on the matter. That they make no attempt to interact with contemporary LDS scholarship is a stain upon the authors' integrity and causes one to wonder about their credibility.

Our fourth conclusion is that at the academic level evangelicals are losing the debate with the Mormons. We are losing the battle and do not know it. In recent years the sophistication and erudition of LDS apologetics has risen considerably while evangelical responses have not. Those who have the skills necessary for this task rarely demonstrate an interest in the issues. Often they do not even know that there is a need. In large part this is due entirely to ignorance of the relevant literature.

Finally, our fifth conclusion is that most involved in the counter-cult movement lack the skills and training necessary to answer Mormon scholarly apologetic. The need is great for trained evangelical biblical scholars, theologians, philosophers and historians to examine and answer the growing body of literature produced by traditional LDS scholars and apologists.

(Further analysis based on the paper of Mosser and Owen has been provided by Justin Hart in "Winning the Battle and Not Knowing It," in MeridianMagazine.com, an article in five parts: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, and Part 5. For an interesting example of the issues that Owen and Mosser have raised, see Paul Owen's rebuttal of anti-Mormon John Weldon's response to the original article of Mosser and Owen. Owen appears to be appalled at the "head-in-the-sand" approach of John Weldon, who has demonstrated the very problems that Mosser and Owen speak against in their paper and says that Weldon's anti-Mormon "intellectual narrow-mindedness" is "astounding."

Latter-day Saints who study the responses of LDS writers to anti-Mormon criticisms know that there are many excellent resources which may refute or at least defuse many of the arguments hurled against us. These resources, found at places like FARMS, The Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research (FAIRLDS.org), SHIELDS, and even my little Web site (including my Mormon Answers section), do not rely on blind faith and emotional feelings to deal with the critics - though there are some tough issues like polygamy for which we don't have good answers (ugh - I really don't like polygamy!). But for many issues, Mosser and Owen are correct in observing that there are "robust defenses." In fact, many of the defenses turn the tables on the critics and leave them in intellectually untenable positions. In fact, we could turn around and ask them a few tough questions of our own -- see, for example, "My Turn--Questions for Anti-Mormons."

What is an anti-Mormon? Anyone who disagrees with you?

This is a poorly defined term, but I would say that only the activists who attack the Church in a way intended to generate misunderstanding, fear, and shock are the ones who deserve the epithet of "anti-Mormons." Many such "Mormon bashers" feel that the end justifies the means, and use tactics that are incompatible with the truthful example of Christ.

There is plenty of room for decent people to disagree with us. Sometimes I even disagree with "us." Most Protestants and Catholics who disagree with us are not "anti-Mormons" but simply people of another denomination. But when someone strives to stir up anger toward the Church and relies on misinformation or half-truths, then I'm inclined to apply the anti-Mormon label--especially when they do it for a living. On the borderline are well meaning people who feel an evangelical duty to battle "cults" (which tend to be any group that disagrees with them) and write articles regurgitating the sensationalist and shocking diatribes of full-blooded anti-Mormons. I tend to call such critics anti-Mormons as well (I sense that they usually don't mind the title, unless they are posing as "loving friends of the Mormons" in order to launch more effective assaults on our faith). Those of other faiths who disagree with us and engage in civil discourse with us about their differences are usually not "anti-Mormons" but perhaps simply critics or just adherents of a different faith.

What tactics do anti-Mormons use?

Some pastors and ministers who might consider themselves as anti-Mormons are sincere in their differences with LDS theology and write intelligently and honestly about their views. They can differ without distorting the truth and can be respectful and kind in their discussions. I guess that intelligent and honest writing doesn't sell well, because the vast majority of popular writing against the Church is ugly, deceptive, and inflammatory. This is the stuff that I tend to call "anti-Mormon."

But others are deliberately deceptive, at least in my opinion. Some know what we really believe, but go out of their way to distort it. I feel that way about Ed Decker's classic work, The God Makers. His movies and writings create the impression that temples are evil, scary places with devil worship, homosexuality, and conspiracy. He alleges that Mormons are plotting to take over the country and impose a theological dictatorship. He warns people not to pray to understand the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, frightening them with the idea that Satan will come and deceive them if they do. I think this goes beyond the sincere.

One of the strangest and most dishonest tactics of some anti-Mormons is falsely claiming to have advanced degrees in order to buttress their credibility. An amazing example is Dee Jay Nelson, who gained the trust of many people by claiming to have academic credentials and an international scholarly reputation--all of which was entirely bogus. He was a con-man who led many gullible people out of the Church during the peak of his illegitimate career as an anti-Mormon lecturer. Others include "Dr." Walter Martin and the amusing "Dr. Dr." John Ankenberg (yes, he lists himself as "Dr. Dr." as if he had two doctorates, though he lacks even one - and no real Ph.D. with two degrees would describe himself as "Dr. Dr."!). The father of anti-Mormons, Doctor Philastrus Hurlbut, was actually named "Doctor" by his parents but lacked a degree. I don't think he promoted himself as if he had the degree, but that title has been used by others to increase respect for that immoral and twice excommunicated anti-Mormon. Other questionable anti-Mormon "Drs." include John Weldon, and James White.

Michael T. Griffith has a page showing some of the tactics of a prominent anti-Mormon. It illustrates how some anti-Mormons seem to deliberately distort LDS writings to achieve their own questionable purposes. The anti-Mormon in this case is Mr. Bill McKeever, the director of the anti-Mormon group Mormonism Research Ministry. I have also corresponded with Mr. McKeever and encountered yet another tactic that typifies many of the self-appointed cult bashers on the Internet. I grew frustrated that my responses to lengthy lists of charges and allegations were largely ignored, and simply followed by other lengthy letters loaded with more allegations and accusations than I could possibly deal with. Any issue I addressed was ignored and followed by additional long letters on new topics. Soon it was clear that the communication was intended to be only one way. It took many requests and finally a complaint to McKeever's e-mail provider before Mr. McKeever would quit sending me unsolicited lengthy anti-Mormon articles.

But that may just be enthusiastic zeal. Maybe it's being overly enthusiastic that leads me to use the "anti" label with some folks. Look, it's subjective, and may be used in error sometimes.

Among the specific tactics used by those I consider anti-Mormons, an especially interesting one is their creative use of definitions to classify Mormons as a cult or as non-Christian. Ironically, the non-standard definitions they craft would also condemn Christ and His early disciples in the New Testament as cultists and non-Christians. For details, see my page, "Do Latter-day Saints Belong to a Cult?" For a tongue-in-cheek demonstration of related anti-Mormon techniques, see my spoof page about an exciting new software product, CultMaster 2000.

A useful resource for information of major anti-Mormons and anti-Mormon organizations, with links to refutational material, is the Critics Corner at Shields-Research.org.

An excellent resource exposing many anti-Mormon tactics is They Lie in Wait to Deceive, Volumes 1-4 by Robert and Rosemary Brown.

Why do evangelicals get so down on Mormons?

Daniel C. Peterson authored the following passage on the Evangelical approach:

The fact is that evangelical Protestantism represents a faction, no more, of a minority faction, no more, of Christianity. That faction arose, relatively late, in northwestern Europe, and it is still basically dominant only among those of northwestern European extraction. It is distinctly a minority in Italy and Brazil and Mexico and Spain and France and Argentina, and it is virtually invisible in Greece and Romania and Russia and Armenia and the Ukraine, to say nothing of Syria, Turkey, Egypt, and Iraq.

Latter-day Saints do not claim that their faith-group is exhaustive of Christendom. We recognize that there are Catholic and Orthodox and other Christians. Some evangelical Protestants seem reluctant, however, to grant that the Copts or the Catholics are Christians at all. Some say so implicitly, and others have told me so explicitly, under direct questioning.

Latter-day Saints do, of course, claim that God has acted to restore the true fullness of Christianity, and that that fulness is embodied in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Such a claim can seem arrogant, and I, for one, would be very hesitant to make it -- indeed, I would refuse to make it -- were it not for the presupposition of direct revelation that undergirds it.

To assert, as some evangelicals have declared directly to me, that they alone are Christians, and that they have arrived at their unique Christianity by virtue of their own reading of the Bible -- implicitly dismissing the other claimants to Christianity as either preternaturally stupid or irrationally evil or some mixture of the two -- seems to me both arrogant and, in view of the fact that the preponderant majority of world "Christians" hold to different opinions, quite unlikely to be true. Even to claim that evangelical Protestants alone are "biblical" or "orthodox" Christians, seems an improbable and smug declaration.

That is the point. Ironically, Latter-day Saints rely, here, upon God's grace, where some of my evangelical interlocutors -- the ones that I have in mind -- seem quite evidently to trust in their own understanding.

But most envamgelicals, though critical of our religion, are not what I would call "anti-Mormons." In fact, many are very respectful and tolerant, in spite of their strong disagreement with our views. The evangelicals I have know over the years have largely been fine examples of Christians who were not out to defame us or stir up fear about the Mormons, and have been great people to dialog with.

What Do Scholars Think of Hugh Nibley?

Some anti-Mormons seem ignorant of Hugh Nibley's work. When forced to confront his writings, many rapidly dismiss him as irresponsible, biased, sloppy, deceitful, etc. On the other hand, there are some non-LDS folks who have pointed out a variety of flaws in Nibley's writings. While Nibley did much to advance study of the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham, LDS people must understand that his work can be rather dated now and often contains errors that he is not around to correct now. Enjoy it, but proceed with caution. But proceed with even more caution with anything I write, for I am far less competent and qualified that he was - I'm just an amateur apologist, guys.

Regarding Nibley, as brilliant and talented as he was, he spent much of his life writing for LDS audiences, and thus may not be widely recognized by other scholars in his field. in spite of some great early publications. That's my opinion, though I have incredible respect for him, having watched him in action and having read much of his work.

Some related insight into Nibley is provided by two well educated anti-LDS writers, Carl Mosser and Paul Owen, mentioned above, whose article, "Mormon Scholarship, Apologetics, and Evangelical Neglect: Losing the Battle and Not Knowing It?," is one of the most intriguing anti-LDS articles I've ever encountered. It warns that anti-LDS writers have essentially completely ignored the significant scholarship of Hugh Nibley and many other LDS scholars who are providing "robust defenses" of the LDS faith. In preparing their paper, Mosser and Owen did something that few anti-LDS writers have done: they have actually read a variety of LDS scholarly writings. Their response, paraphrased, is: "Wake up, anti-Mormons! We're losing the intellectual war without even knowing it!" Here is what they say about Nibley:

Hugh Nibley: The Father of Mormon Scholarly Apologetics
Hugh Nibley is without question the pioneer of LDS scholarship and apologetics. Since earning his Ph.D. at the University of California at Berkeley in 1939, Nibley has produced a seemingly endless stream of books and articles covering a dauntingly vast array of subject matter. Whether writing on Patristics, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the apocrypha, the culture of the Ancient Near East or Mormonism, he demonstrates an impressive command of the original languages, primary texts and secondary literature. He has set a standard which younger LDS intellectuals are hard pressed to follow. There is not room here for anything approaching an exhaustive examination of Nibley's works.(1) We must confess with Truman Madsen, Professor Emeritus of Philosophy and Religion at Brigham Young University: "To those who know him best, and least, Hugh W. Nibley is a prodigy, an enigma, and a symbol."(2)

The few evangelicals who are aware of Hugh Nibley often dismiss him as a fraud or pseudo-scholar. Those who would like to quickly dismiss his writings would do well to heed Madsen's warning: "Ill-wishing critics have suspected over the years that Nibley is wrenching his sources, hiding behind his footnotes, and reading into antique languages what no responsible scholar would every read out. Unfortunately, few have the tools to do the checking."(3) The bulk of Nibley's work has gone unchallenged by evangelicals despite the fact that he has been publishing relevant material since 1946. Nibley's attitude toward evangelicals: "We need more anti-Mormon books. They keep us on our toes."(4)

No doubt there are flaws in Nibley's work, but most counter-cultists do not have the tools to demonstrate this. Few have tried.(5) It is beyond the scope of this paper to critique Nibley's methodology or to describe the breadth of his apologetic.(6) Whatever flaws may exist in his methodology, Nibley is a scholar of high caliber. Many of his more important essays first appeared in academic journals such as the Revue de Qumran, Vigiliae Christianae, Church History, and the Jewish Quarterly Review.(7) Nibley has also received praise from non-LDS scholars such as Jacob Neusner, James Charlesworth, Cyrus Gordon, Raphael Patai and Jacob Milgrom.(8) The former dean of the Harvard Divinity School, George MacRae, once lamented while hearing him lecture, "It is obscene for a man to know that much!"(9) Nibley has not worked in a cloister. It is amazing that few evangelical scholars are aware of his work. In light of the respect Nibley has earned in the non-LDS scholarly world it is more amazing that counter-cultists can so glibly dismiss his work.

Footnotes from the above passage:
1. FARMS is currently working on a twenty volume collection of Nibley's works, ten of which are already published (abbr. CWHN).

2. Truman Madsen, foreword to Nibley on the Timely and the Timeless: Classic Essays of Hugh W. Nibley, edited by Madsen (Provo: BYU Religious Studies Center, 1978), ix.

3. Ibid., xiv.

4. Quoted by Madsen, ibid., xi.

5. In fact, the only substantial evangelical interaction we have seen to date is James White's 56 page (single spaced) disputation of the proper syntax of the pronoun in Matthew 16:18. This paper can be acquired from the Alpha & Omega Ministries Internet site.

6. For a sharp critique of Nibley's methodology from an LDS perspective see Kent P. Jackson in BYU Studies 28 no. 4 (Fall 1988):114-119.

7. Specific references can be found in John M. Lundquist and Stephen D. Ricks, eds., By Study and Also by Faith: Essays in Honor of Hugh W. Nibley (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co. and FARMS, 1990), 1:xviii-lxxxvii.

8. See the contributions by these men in volume one of Nibley's festschrift By Study and Also by Faith.

9. See Philip L. Barlow, Mormons and the Bible (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1991), 147 n. 105.

Where can I find resources to respond to anti-LDS attacks?

I think my LDSFAQ Suite offers useful answers to many common questions and allegations. Other general resources with many articles and responses include:

FARMS

The Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies in Provo, Utah, is the leading organization for scholarly understanding of LDS issues, especially the scriptures. They are a tremendous source of valuable research and publications. As one of many examples from FARMS, one of the best written articles dealing with typical anti-Mormon attacks is that of Russell C. McGregor and Kerry A. Shirts, "Letters to an Anti-Mormon," FARMS Review of Books, Vol. 11, No. 1, 1999, pp. 90-298 (I said it was good, not short!).

The Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research (FAIRLDS.org)

Offering many sound articles and other resources for those wishing to understand intellectual issues involving Latter-day Saint religion.

SHIELDS

A competent and diverse LDS resource for those wishing to explore LDS doctrine, history, and rebuttals to anti-Mormon allegations.

Russell Anderson's Response Page"

A collection of resources and discussion of common anti-Mormon attacks. There is also some fascinating information on some of the most famous professional anti-Mormons.

A Resource for LDS Apologetics

By Kevin Graham. A collection of articles and resources, including many articles by Kevin.

Other specific resources:

• Credible responses to Marquardt and Wesley P. Walters' Inventing Mormonism are found on a page by Russell Anderson.
• Information on "Dr." Walter Martin - by Russel Anderson

[P-Marlowe]

Well, if they spawned you, there might well be no activity there. I hear that intelligence is genetically related.

As fourth generation Mormons, they would probably be related to you and your parents. And since they are dead, then (like you and resty) they would likely have no discernible brain activity.

[restornu]

Thank you SD it looks like as time goes by it will escallate more and as the prophet said more work can be done within our 4 walls than wasting time here

D&C 95: 6, 12
6 They who are not chosen have sinned a very grievous sin, in that they are walking in darkness at noon-day.
• • •
12 If you keep not my commandments, the love of the Father shall not continue with you, therefore you shall walk in darkness.

[fproy2222]

and yet, the New Testament promises us true teachers and prophets.

to you, where are they?

[fproy2222]

What would you like to hear?

++++++++++++++

Someone who cares and respects us enough to teach without using language that is designed to make us not want to listen.

[Tennessee Nana]

“It is obvious none of you and I mean none of you have been touch by the Holy Spirit yet!”
_____________________________________________

The Holy Spirit doesnt “touch” and come on and off like He did the prophets in the Old testament...

now the Holy Spirit indwells...Romans 8:9
_________________________________________________

“One is aware when that happens, there is man’s good behavior and than there is the behavior when one is allowing the Holy Spirit to leads one tongue.”
____________________________________________________

Man’s so-called “good behavior” doesnt move God..Faith does
___________________________________________________

“Many just want to use the Bible is their only source of back up.”
______________________________________________________

The Christians chose to read and believe the only book that’s true...with the only true accounting of Jesus
_______________________________________________________

“And for many these will go over many of your heads, many will just pretend this was never pointed out, and continue saying, but the Bible says!”
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If the Bible “says” it then it is true whether or not you believe it...

I count all things but loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Jesus Christ my Lord...Philippians 3:8

For I am determined not to know any thing amongst you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified...1 Corinthians 2:2

[Tennessee Nana]

And those who do know how to use the Lord’s Bible, many of you will try to belittle and scoff at, thinking this will hide your inability and reveal that so many of you here are clueless as how to work with the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ!
___________________________________________________

I take it you do know “how to work with the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ!”

So spill...

Waiting

(Looks at watch)

(Hours go by)

(Days)

((((CRICKETS))))

[Tennessee Nana]

the video entitled “Lying for the Lord” [Mormon Robert Millet lecturing to an audience preparing for a mission, where he says, among other things, “Never provide meat when milk will do”.]
______________________________________________

And yet Paul admonished the believers about falling back to milk when they were to practice the meat...

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you AGAIN which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat, For everyone that uses milk is unskillful in the word of righteousness for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them who are of full age. even those who by use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil....Hebrews 5:12-14

Well, that leaves out those 19 year old mormon missionaries on bikes...no meat there...

AQctually the “meat” of the Gospel of jesus Christ is this..

Jesus died for your sin s and my sins and you needed a savior so that Gos would not punish you for your sins, and I did to...

Jesus came in the flesh, died on the cross at calvary, shed His precious blood, declared “it is finihed” rose and gain the 3rd day...

Now since He died in your place, my place, we can be born again/saved and go to heaven to live with Him and worship him forever...

Rather than go to Hell forever..

To be born again/saved means to admit you are a sinner and asked god to forgive you, ask Jesus to save you, and do that believing...

Jesus will save you...not Mohammad..not Joseph Smith..

[Tennessee Nana]

Does this mean your parents are not talking to you!
___________________________________________

My parents are dead also...

Those remarks of yours are nasty and uncalled for...

Thanks to my parents’ love of God and their testimony of the salvation of Jesus Christ, I learned about Jesus at an early age..

I will ever be grateful to them for being a Godly example in front of my young life and I am thankful to God for His mercy...

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***I wish they’d go pick on the Mennonites for a while.****

Here is a start!
A local Christian congregation leased a church building from the Mennonites. Aftr 9-11 the church wanted to have a “Support the Troops” day. The pacifist Mennonites pulled the lease. It is now a day care center.

[Elsie]

 

There also another Scripture about the mark of the beast...

 

Here ya go!!

 

THESE are the Scriptures that mention Anti-Christ:

NIV 1 John 2:18-29
 18.  Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.
 19.  They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
 20.  But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.
 21.  I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth.
 22.  Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son.
 23.  No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
 24.  See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.
 25.  And this is what he promised us--even eternal life.
 26.  I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray.
 27.  As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.
 28.  And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.
 29.  If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.

 

NIV 1 John 4:1-3
 1.  Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
 2.  This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
 3.  but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

 

NIV 2 John 1:7
   Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

 

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Now THESE are about the BEAST:

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NIV Revelation 13:1-18
 1.  And the dragon  stood on the shore of the sea.   And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.
 2.  The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 
 3.  One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast .

 4.  Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?"
 5.  The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months.
 6.  He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven.
 7.  He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
 8.  All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
 9.  He who has an ear, let him hear.
 10.  If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.
 11.  Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon.
 12.  He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.
 13.  And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.
 14.  Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.
 15.  He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
 16.  He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead,
 17.  so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
 18.  This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.

 

And THOSE are ALL the Scriptures pertaining to 666.  (That I know of)

[Elsie]

Joseph was a very humble servant...

Sure he was!

[Elsie]

PERSONAL ATTACK ALERT! Too much over the top, restornu.

Oh, I didn't see it as so bad.

If these guys feel a need to try and press certain buttons; well, ok then.

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I really NEED a straightman to feed me good lines!

;^)

[Elsie]

I miss JAG!

[Tennessee Nana]

I really NEED a straightman to feed me good lines!”

The jokes keep on writing themselves

LOL

[Elsie]

Yes and now a word from the biggest catty!:)

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Genus Vulpes
foxes

Classification: Order Carnivora (carnivores) > Family Canidae (dogs, foxes) > Genus Vulpes

 

You are wrong, Resty.   CATS are a different creature.

 

Genus Felis
small cats

Classification: Order Carnivora (carnivores) > Family Felidae (cats) > Genus Felis

[bonfire]

Then why are you all so busy baptizing those that are already BAPTIZED in the name of Jesus Christ?

[Elsie]

This project is moving quite nicely across the earth!

 

NIV Revelation 13:1-18
 1.  And the dragon  stood on the shore of the sea.   And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.
 2.  The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 
 3.  One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast .

 4.  Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?"
 5.  The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months.
 6.  He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven.
 7.  He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
 8.  All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
 9.  He who has an ear, let him hear.
 10.  If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.
 11.  Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon.
 12.  He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.
 13.  And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.
 14.  Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.
 15.  He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
 16.  He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead,
 17.  so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
 18.  This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.

 

 

[Elsie]

Luke 13:33

Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the [day] following: for it CANNOT BE that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

 

Details...

 

 

 

 

KJV Luke 13:33
  Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

 

ASV Luke 13:33
  Nevertheless I must go on my way to-day and to-morrow and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

 

NIV Luke 13:33
 In any case, I must keep going today and tomorrow and the next day--for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!

 

Pick ANY 'translation'!

 

Even the Blessed JST had no CHANGES.

 

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                    Luke

 

 

Luke 1: 8	Zacharias, John the Baptist’s father, was performing priesthood duties. (compare Luke 1: 8)
Luke 2: 46	The doctors in the temple were listening to Jesus and asking him questions. (compare Luke 2: 46)
Luke 3: 4-11	Christ shall come to fulfill prophecy, take away sins, bring salvation, and be a light, and he shall come in the day of power and the fulness of times. (compare Luke 3: 4-6)
Luke 3: 19-20
Luke 6: 29-30
Luke 9: 24-25
Luke 11: 53	The fulness of the scriptures is the key of knowledge. (compare Luke 11: 52)
Luke 12: 9-12	Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven. (compare Luke 12: 9-10)
Luke 12: 41-57	We must always be ready for the coming of the Lord. (compare Luke 12: 38-48)
Luke 14: 35-37
Luke 16: 16-23	Jesus provided the context for the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. (compare Luke 16: 16-18)
Luke 17: 21	The kingdom of God has already come. (compare Luke 17: 20-21)
Luke 17: 36-40	Jesus explained a parable regarding the gathering of the righteous. (compare Luke 17: 37)
Luke 21: 24-26	Jesus explained the signs of his coming. (compare Luke 21: 24-26)
Luke 21: 32	All will be fulfilled when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (compare Luke 21: 32)
Luke 23: 35	Jesus asked forgiveness for the Roman soldiers who crucified him. (compare Luke 23: 34)
Luke 24: 2-4

[Tennessee Nana]

This project is moving quite nicely across the earth!
_________________________________________________

A few hundred 19 year old mormon missionaries go on 2 year “missions” for 2 years anbd add 2-4 “converts”

The mormons claim 6,000,000 members in the US and 13,000,000 around the world..

As the mormons are encouraged to had large families and are proud to do so...many of their increase are from their own added children...

Joseph Smith had 30 “wives”

If only 15 of them had his children at 2 a piece = 30

A generation use to be measured at 30 years and so since 150/30 years have gone by since Joseph Smith tried to shoot his way out of jail...

By adding a spouse each succeeding generation and two chidren each through 1850, 1880, 1910, 1940 1970, 2000 the mormons can account for more than 1,000,000 new members just from Joseph Smith’s progeny...

And since the mormons have large families...more than just the two children each couple that I accounted for each generation...

See, no new “converts” as such...

just new babies carried on the Cradle Rolls...

[Tennessee Nana]

Yhello ???