Haven't Anti-Mormons Completely Destroyed the Credibility of Mormonism?

jefflindsay.com ^ | Nov. 5, 2006 | Jeff Lindsay

[colorcountry]

We borrowed more than “A Green Hill far away”

But NOT "Amazing Grace!"

[nicmarlo]

in a public sermon (Brodie p 374, HC 6:408-412): "Come on, ye persecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! For I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet."

Joseph Smith said he's superior to Christ, who is God, and the disciples that Christ picked to be His disciples, the very ones He entrusted to go out into "all the world" and preach His Gospel? My word!!

[greyfoxx39]

We borrowed more than “A Green Hill far away”
But NOT "Amazing Grace!"

AND not "The Old Rugged Cross"!

[Quester]

You are going under the assumption that the gospel you were preached to is the same gospel that was preached to the early saints. I don’t know what faith you are, and frankly, it’s none of my business ( I don’t spend my time here on FR ripping other’s faith like some) but given the 30 thousand plus different “Christian” religions in the world, teaching different doctrines, they can’t all be teaching the same things that were given to the early saints.

One Lord, One faith, One baptism.

Certainly, those groups whose beliefs are truly Christian ... can all teach an agreed upon core of Christian belief.

Now, of course, they may do some other things differently (i.e. how they baptize, how often they gather, what music they use, etc.) ...

... just like the (15) plus churches mentioned in the New Testament (i.e. Rome, Ephesus, Philadelphia, Sardis, Smyrna, Colossa, Philippi, Galatia, etc.)

[Quester]

I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet."

Luke 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

And so we see ... the heart of the man.

[nicmarlo]

If these are things he truly believed and thought....to his death....he was not possessed by the Holy Spirit, that’s for sure.

[Zakeet]

Joseph Smith said he's superior to Christ, who is God, and the disciples that Christ picked to be His disciples, the very ones He entrusted to go out into "all the world" and preach His Gospel? My word!!

ACTUALLY, IT'S MUCH WORSE THAN THAT

The text of Smith's May 26, 1844 address includes the following:

I, like Paul, have been in perils, and oftener than anyone in this generation. As Paul boasted, I have suffered more than Paul did. I should be like a fish out of water, if I were out of persecutions. Perhaps my brethren think it requires all this to keep me humble. The Lord has constituted me so curiously that I glory in persecution. I am not nearly so humble as if I were not persecuted. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil – all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam … Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me … God knows that the charges against me are false … what a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can find only one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers.

Smith was dressed in his military uniform and waving his sword about as he answered his critics by denying he practiced polygamy and was better than Jesus. Of course, he was lying through his teeth on both claims.

[sevenbak]

You guys are killing me! I love the context you are placing this speech in.

In the original context, Joseph was facing intense persecution by many people, including some he had previously considered to be his friends. This statement was supposedly made about a month before he was killed. He made it after reading chapter 11 of 2 Corinthians to the congregation. Note the following statement by Paul, in this scripture:

“Again I say, let no one think me foolish; but if you do, receive me even as foolish, that I also may boast a little. That which I am speaking, I am not speaking it as the Lord would, but as in foolishness, in this confidence of boasting. Since many boast according to the flesh, I will boast also. For you, being so wise, bear the foolish gladly. (2 Corinthians 11:16-19)
Paul then launches into a literary tirade where he claims many things to make himself look the fool, to contrast himself with those who the Corinthians were listening to for their words of salvation, instead of to him. His words were meant to compare and contrast what the Saints at Corinth were doing against what he was offering.”

Do you all similarly dismiss the words of Paul and deny his calling as an Apostle because he used such a literary approach that included boasting? No, you don’t. Yet, yo dismiss Joseph Smith when it is clear by his own statements, in context, that he engaged in the exact same literary approach. Consider the words of Joseph right after reading this chapter of Paul’s to the congregation:

“My object is to let you know that I am right here on the spot where I intend to stay. I, like Paul, have been in perils, and oftener than anyone in this generation. As Paul boasted, I have suffered more than Paul did, I should be like a fish out of water, if I were out of persecutions. Perhaps my brethren think it requires all this to keep me humble. The Lord has constituted me curiously that I glory in persecution. I am not nearly so humble as if I were not persecuted. If oppression will make a wise man mad, much more a fool. If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of a mountain and crow like a rooster: I shall always beat them. When facts are proved, truth and innocence will prevail at last. My enemies are no philosophers: they think that when they have my spoke under, they will keep me down; but for the fools, I will hold on and fly over them.”

Then Joseph makes the statements that the critics attack, in the same way that Paul made outrageous “boasts” to contrast his position with the position of those who the Corinthians were starting to listen to. Paul starts the next chapter of 2 Corinthians with the statement “boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable.” So, it would appear that Paul recognizes the necessity of boasting at times (though it may do little good, being unprofitable), yet the antis do not allow Joseph to follow Paul’s advice and, of necessity, boast at times.
Perhaps you are all are unaware of Paul’s advice? Or perhaps you apply a double standard where Paul is allowed such literary and rhetorical license, but Joseph is not?
Such double standards seem to be the calling cards of those that lurk these threads.

Joseph was a humble servant of God, his numerous writings attest to that. He was also a man, mortal and driven by righteous indignation and anger at what was done to the Saints and to him. I don't blame him anymore than I blame Paul.

Take a look at yourselves, and your approach to anti Mormonism. You carefully select context-less snippets that you think will drag a man down, destroy the faith of others, and make yourselves appear better among men (on FR anyway) How is this somewhat prideful approach any different than what you are accusing Joseph (or Paul) of?

Take a step back and look what you are doing and how you may be affecting not only others, but yourselves as well?

There, I'm done with my soapbox. Time to get back to work!

[sevenbak]

Hoax, a translation was never made, and a statement attributed to Joseph about what they were was from someone elses journal. No translation was done, though the Church had them for many years. They still might.

[sevenbak]

Hmmm, how thick do you want our hymnal to be? There are literally thousands of Hymns in Christendom.

Good grief, do you know how many songs we have in our hymnal that are about Christ? Here are just a few, of many many more.

Behold the Great Redeemer Die - Hymns #191
Guide Us, O Thou Great Jehovah - Hymns #83
He Died! The Great Redeemer Died - Hymns #192
I Know That My Redeemer Lives - Hymns #136
Master, the Tempest Is Raging - Hymns #105
My Redeemer Lives - Hymns #135
Precious Savior, Dear Redeemer - Hymns #103
Redeemer of Israel - Hymns #6
Savior, Redeemer of My Soul - Hymns #112

Here is a useful search tool if you want to look up all our hymns. This one is alphabetical. Go through all 28 pages, I triple dog dare ya. ;-)

http://www.lds.org/cm/catalogsearchalpha/1,17929,4782-1-1,00.html

[presently no screen name]

What I do “get” is that this blatant hostility will “get” either of us nowhere.

That's your problem - you see 'correction' as condemnation - blatant hostility, anti-mormon, whatever tag you choose. It's your choice to act as a victim and remain unteachable.

Attribute blatant hostility to JoeWorksSmith with his blasphemous words/actions towards God's Holy Word. One day - it is a given - you will be hostile towards Smith's teachings but it will be too late and no amount of 'I didn't know' will cut it. You have no idea what blatant hostility is, yet, but you will.

[sevenbak]

JoeWorksSmith with his blasphemous words/actions towards God's Holy Word. One day - it is a given - you will be hostile towards Smith's teachings but it will be too late

You really can't see your hostility in your posts? Take a breath and a step back man.

You aren't going to convince me, no matter how many times you promise be that I will burn in hell. I have a witness from the Holy Ghost that defies the wisdom of men. It's personal, as it should be for all who come unto Christ.

You worship as you will, and allow me the same privilege. This is a country founded on religious tolerance, and the ability to worship God as we see fit.

Good day.

[colorcountry]

I don’t need to look up your hymns, I know practically all of them by heart.

I even know Primary songs.

I am a Child of God
and He has sent me here
Has gven me an earthly home
with parents kind and dear

Lead me, guide me, walk beside me
Help me find the way
Teach me all that I must DO
To live with him someday.

I’ve even learned all the things that I must DO. The secret handshakes, the “proper” order of prayer, the oath to let my life be taken should I reveal either of the first two items I must DO.

I didn’t fall for it. I won’t become a God, God didn’t evolve, and their is no “Celestial Kingdom” where Dallin Oaks will procreate with BOTH his wives and to his increase.

Such glorious praise in Mormondom. Ha!

[colorcountry]

...though the Church had them for many years. They still might.

But no one knows? Quite telling this.

[nicmarlo]

Smith was dressed in his military uniform and waving his sword about as he answered his critics by denying he practiced polygamy and was better than Jesus. Of course, he was lying through his teeth on both claims.

From what I've read (and documentaries I've watched), I understand you state the truth about this matter, Zakeet.

What blows my mind away are these words (those most especially in red/bold):

I, like Paul, have been in perils, and oftener than anyone in this generation. As Paul boasted, I have suffered more than Paul did. I should be like a fish out of water, if I were out of persecutions. Perhaps my brethren think it requires all this to keep me humble. The Lord has constituted me so curiously that I glory in persecution. I am not nearly so humble as if I were not persecuted. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil – all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam … Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me … God knows that the charges against me are false … what a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can find only one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers.

They remind me of Lucifer:

Isaiah 14:12-15:

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

[fproy2222]

Dosen’t Zakeet remind you of the Shadow

+++++

As a kid I enjoyed listening to the shadow.

Wished I had the ability to control other peoples minds.

[fproy2222]

ps, The Shadow was a good guy.

[fproy2222]

we use the good wherever we find it.

=+=+=
Like all the “good” verses of the Book of Mormon that were lifted directly and word for word from the pages of the King James Version of the Bible.

+++++++++++++

You have complained when God says something different then your understandings, in His Book Of Mormon, now you complain because He says the same thing that you believe.

[fproy2222]

God is spirit <> God has a body

++++++++

I too find this question interesting.

Jesus would not let anyone touch Him before He returned to his Father, or to Himself as you teach.

After returning from His Father, or as you teach, from Himself, He made sure we knew He had a body of flesh and bone.

When He went back to His Father, or as you say back to Himself again, what happened to the body He wanted us to know He had.

You do teach that the Father, that Jesus prayed to, and Jesus are the same being, so They/He had a body when Jesus left His disciples.

[Elsie]

Why do you lash out at Joseph Smith for saying “as far as it is translated correctly” when you are doing the same thing, even calling it a poor translation?

This is probably due to the fact that the 'english' used is very old fashioned: Wist Thou not?

When the LDS scriputers are tranlated into non-English languages; you do NOT use what was in vogue 400 years ago, but in TODAY's vernacular.