Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
So, as a Christian, Ann Coulter finds nothing wrong with insulting people like that simply because she disagrees with them politically?
You forgot racist, sexist, homophobic, unpatriotic, and she hates puppies
Who could ask for a better Republican and a Christian to boot?
Some people say that Christianity means in part that we should never put anyone in jail according to the scriptures. I find your above to be a perfect example of what the following verse was really designed to cover: Matt 7:1-2 : 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged
So, when I use the same un-Christian approach as Ann Coulter, I am being reminded of Mat 7:12? I think you need to remind Ann Coulter of those verses, probably several times a day. I can guarantee you that never, not even in private thoughts, do I think what Ann Coulter publicly says about people she doesn't agree with.
As I understand it, Ann does happen to be a Reformer
Her actions and words make that abundantly clear, imo.
Please show me a pattern of examples. I haven't seen ONE yet.
What pattern of examples? If your sins are all forgiven and you are "saved," there is nothing to stop you from doing the most abominable things. Nothing. Unless of course there is nothing you do on your own will, but only according to God's will. In either case, you are "justified." Both possibilities are covered: in the former, your sins are already forgiven; in the later, doing God's will is never wrong.
Kosta: Reformed theology may not promote that which is carnal, but it intrinsically lacks any checks and balances that will make any individual stop and say "am I supposed to be doing this?" (emphasis added)
FK: Kosta, I KNOW you know better, and I will stop there and not get into your motivations. To all lurkers, the above is a 100% mischaracterization of Reformed theology.
I think my previous paragraph shows that this is not a mischaracterization of the Reformed theology, but that the Reformed theology is completely tailored after human ego and self-righteousness.
Rom 6:1-2 : What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means ! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
Well, because they do! No one is dead to sin. We continue to sin. So this is patently false.
Will you allow us to believe this?
Believe what you wish; it's what you practice, however, that shows your belief.
BTW, from your above, and barring national security, a prior contract, or McCain legislation or something, which opinions are not allowed in this country?
Those popularizing violent overthrow of the government, president, etc.
So if a female friend or family memeber asks you if she looks fat in a dress you just lay it on 'em straight down the line? Riiiiiiiiight
There are ways of saying things and there are ways of saying things, FK. You can say anything if you say them "correctly."
You have done a pretty good job to "defame" her in your post. Can you back it up with anything?
Why should I? I am just using her method, which seems to irritate you for some reason.
“And, besides, since when does God do things on our agenda if everything is subject to fulfillment of His “plan?”
It’s not “our agenda” but according to His plan to perfect us. His plan was for Jesus to learn obedience by the things He suffered. Innocence becomes virtue by testing.
***Well, why do you think Luther tried so hard to get rid of the Book of James!? He realized the unbridgable problem with this. I don’t think he could bring himself to admit that God is the source of evil. But, lawyer Calivin had no problems with that, and neither do his saints. ***
Calvin was much more ruthless and had a much greater ambition to rule than Luther did.
***unless God just wants people to keep busy***
Some unfathomable reason, I’m sure.
***That’s why you have pastor Hagee, who endorsed McCain just yesterday, who says that Katrina was sent by God because New Orleans planned a gay parade the following week. He also calls the Catholic Church a “cult” and the “Great Whore.” I hope not a single Catholic votes for McCain after this. ***
Whoever gets the Democratic nod has supporters that at least equal Hagee’s putrescence.
***All in all, they are pretty Muslim and pretty medieval in everything but name.***
It’s a much easier mindset to get into. True Catholicism requires much that robots are unable to handle.
***The Bible is “man’s feeble attempts”??? Well, that explains a lot. I know Kosta’s view is along these lines, but I didn’t know it was the Latin view also. I was confused because of what the Catechism says (all emphasis added):
105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. “The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.”69
“For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself.”70
106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. “To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more.”71
107 The inspired books teach the truth. “Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.”72***
Read the Catechism closely: Scripture teaches that Truth which God wants us to know via Scripture. And remember that this is translation of translation. The Holy Spirit allows the Truth to be known, utilizing man’s attempts to write down what God has made known.
I could probably use a little narrowing of the issue :), but my first impression is that while a little expensive, eternity always makes a great gift. I usually go for the three-pack, which includes a couple of slatherables, along with some really nice smelling toilet water. (Can you imagine working in THAT factory? :) Talk about watching sausage being made.....
The eternality of the call does not excuse us from dealing with, and submitting our call and ministry to the review of, the manifestly and obviously fallible and peccable (in their own persons) folks who bear the ministry of being our pastors. Otherwise we seem to be making ourselves greater than Paul.
Sure, I have no problem with that if it's being done "through" a local church. When I taught a Sunday School class my curriculum had to get the blessing of our pastor. We discussed what reference books I was going to use, he made some great suggestions, and it was off to the races. Interestingly, that was before I became a Reformer. I'm not sure what would happen if today I wanted to teach a class on, say, Romans. My best guess would be that he would be fine with it if I gave full disclosure and maybe gave both sides of the issues on which there would be a difference.
One doe snot become innocent. Either you are innocent all along or you are not.
When you say "His plan for Jesus" are you separating the Person of Jesus from the Person of the Word? Remember, one Person, two natures is the orthodox Jesus.
By asserting that Jesus had to "learn" obedience means that He had a potential to be disobedient. Did that potential ever exist? Was there ever a time when Jesus may have sinned through disobedience? Or was His human will always in perfect harmony with His divine will, even when He was still "unlearned?"
Innocence becomes virtue by testing
So, was Jesus not virtuous all His life? Was there ever any doubt in the same Person we call Jesus the Savior that His human nature needed testing in order to "become" innocent?
+John Chrysostomos said: “The desire to rule is the mother of heresies.”
OK now you're doing it on purpose! :)
***+John Chrysostomos said: “The desire to rule is the mother of heresies.”***
He was very wise.
“Did that potential ever exist? Was there ever a time when Jesus may have sinned through disobedience?”
The Bible is clear when it says that Jesus, “... has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet without sin” (Heb. 4:15). Peter said Jesus was “the Holy One of God” (John. 6:69). John said, “In him there is no sin” (1 John. 3:5). The writer to the Hebrews stated Jesus is “a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens” (Heb. 7:26).
What kept Jesus, in His humanity, from sinning, was the fact of the unity of His person. It is fallacious to say that the humanity of Christ could ever stand alone and be unsupported by His Deity. The humanity of Christ was not, and could not be, divorced from His Deity, nor could it ever be in a position of uninvolved responsibility. Being God, He cannot and not merely would not sin. He is “the same yesterday, and today, and forever” (Hebrews 13:8).
Because He was man, He could be tempted, but because He was God He could not sin, since there was no sin principle in Christ that could or would respond to temptation to sin. The assumption that if Christ was unable to succumb to temptation, then there is no genuine temptation is wrong. The Bible says Christ did experience genuine temptation (Heb. 4:15). Each one of us is fully human. Each one of us has been genuinely tempted. Yet, all of us have successfully resisted temptation at one time or another and not sinned. But because you did not sin, would you argue that the temptation was not genuine? Because Jesus did not give in to temptation does not mean that the temptation He faced was not genuine.
The reason He did not give in to temptation was because He was God and it was impossible for Him to sin. But Jesus both understood and experienced genuine temptation, yet He did not sin. We are told in Scripture that God is infinite, holy, righteous, omnipotent and immutable. Since He is immutable, then He is always holy and righteous. He will never change. It is impossible for God to sin or to do evil. “Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever” (Heb. 13:8). That means He is unchanging. Therefore, if He also is God and man in one person, and Scripture says He never changes, then He could not ever sin.
“So, was Jesus not virtuous all His life?”
One does not become innocent, one is innocent, a state of being that is worthless until it becomes virtue. Virtue is demonstrated moral excellence. Jesus was virtuous all of His life as God, but it was demonstrated by His obedience.
Just goes to show you how "rich" biblical symbols can be. I don't think there's anything "objectively wrong" with your view, dear hosepipe. Just as I don't think there's anything "objectively wrong" with mine. Both interpretations seem just, though each is viewed from a somewhat different perspective.
Again, biblical symbols can be enormously "rich." Which to my way of thinking is an argument against any attempt to read the Holy Scriptures "literally."
Thank you so much for your insights, dear brother in Christ!
Sure, but I consider that to be a little different, as it concerns personal sanctification. I was talking about leading and teaching others in the word of God. I just think that when God sent the Apostles out into the world that He also equipped them to do what He sent them to do. Otherwise, it would have been a mission doomed to failure.
“+John Chrysostomos said: “The desire to rule is the mother of heresies.”
I take it John was never married?
Dear lady of grace.. its so true.. Just as "we" both have tried to explain the "observer problem" to the materialist scientists the same is true of spiritual things.. An spiritual observer can see things quite differently.. Example.. The Vision of Jesus Christ i.e. revelation... Is shown to John.. He sees what he can see.. and wrote what that appeared to be "to him".. To another; other visualizations, may have been prominent.. Because the whole experience was for "him".. You know; a "guy" that had never seen even one episode of Star Trek.. Must have been quite cool to him.. seeing all those "special effects".. directed by the Angel(s).. and probably God..
Spiritual things are indeed observed in the eye of the beholder.. I still love I Cor 2;9.. We probably cannot compute the way things really are.. We just observe what we can observe.. which is not from the same vantage(observation) points/vistas.. people that see similar things group together as clubs.. ugh.. churchs.. It very well could take US ALL to even approach understanding reality.. Presently we gather in clubs, you know, for fellowship and comfort.. Except for the ones that came out of the sheep pens.. they are a flock too, and just another group really.. but with no walls of the sheep pens.. alas just another club.. All clubs have special door knocks and handshakes.. guess we are all "Little Rascals".. i.e. ancient movie shorts..
Excellently put, dear hosepipe!
And yet the laws of the world and eternity, of heaven and earth -- God's laws -- are the same for all observers, regardless of their spatiotemporal positions. (Einstein said that). Some "observers" are willfully blind; but mainly we all suffer from the "seeing as if through a glass, darkly" problem.
Regarding your interpretation of the sheepfold as a sort of "religious club": I'm reminded of Eric Voegelin's cutting remark that, for many people these days, the churches have become "social clubs for like-minded families"....
Thanks for writing, dear brother in Christ!
FK: But how can that be when the Gospels say: ...
Kosta: I wrote a verifiable fact about Judaism, namely what Judaism believes about the messiah. Are you saying that's not what they believe?
If you say that's what they believe today, that's fine. I'm sure many back then also believed it. I'm saying that couldn't have been the correct faith of the time because none could have been righteous in actively denying Christ. Yet, we are plainly told in the OT that some WERE righteous. Therefore, those who were righteous could not have believed as you say Judaism taught.
Luke 24:44 : He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
Which prophesy would that be, FK?
Well, all of 'em. :) Maybe I don't understand what you mean, but as you know the OT is littered with Messianic prophecies. I'm sure I could whip up a list of them if you like.
John 5:45-47 : 45 "But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"
I am simply going to ask you to show me where Moses actually writes about Christ (I imagine His death and suffering), as John claims.
I may as well go ahead and link a list. There are lots of them out there. This one looked OK. It has about 23 examples from Moses: Fulfilled Messianic Prophecies .
“I take it John was never married?”
Not to my knowledge....
“He was very wise.”
Some would argue that its easy to be wise without a wife...or maybe that’s to be a “wise guy”. (She Who Must Be Obeyed made me post this, bd.)
Why do you say this? The fact that we disagree on the what precisely The Church is, are you saying that no one who does not know Christ can be Righteous? Does that mean that the OT Righteous "knew" Christ? That seems rather presumptuous frankly. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you?
What loving Father would do that? None that I know of, and our Father in heaven is much more loving to his adopted children that ANY father on earth can be. Especially when God the Father makes promises that we WILL be with him in heaven, not MIGHT be with him in heaven.
Amen to that! Analogies to human relationships with each other always fall ultimately short, but here it is clear that even good humans would not do what the other side supposes God does. And, as you say, we have God's promises to rely on.
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