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To: blue-duncan; Forest Keeper
His plan was for Jesus to learn obedience by the things He suffered. Innocence becomes virtue by testing

One doe snot become innocent. Either you are innocent all along or you are not.

When you say "His plan for Jesus" are you separating the Person of Jesus from the Person of the Word? Remember, one Person, two natures is the orthodox Jesus.

By asserting that Jesus had to "learn" obedience means that He had a potential to be disobedient. Did that potential ever exist? Was there ever a time when Jesus may have sinned through disobedience? Or was His human will always in perfect harmony with His divine will, even when He was still "unlearned?"

Innocence becomes virtue by testing

So, was Jesus not virtuous all His life? Was there ever any doubt in the same Person we call Jesus the Savior that His human nature needed testing in order to "become" innocent?

3,486 posted on 03/05/2008 9:51:00 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50
One doe snot become innocent.

OK now you're doing it on purpose! :)

3,488 posted on 03/05/2008 10:14:04 AM PST by Zero Sum (Liberalism: The damage ends up being a thousand times the benefit! (apologies to Rabbi Benny Lau))
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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper

“Did that potential ever exist? Was there ever a time when Jesus may have sinned through disobedience?”

The Bible is clear when it says that Jesus, “... has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet without sin” (Heb. 4:15). Peter said Jesus was “the Holy One of God” (John. 6:69). John said, “In him there is no sin” (1 John. 3:5). The writer to the Hebrews stated Jesus is “a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens” (Heb. 7:26).

What kept Jesus, in His humanity, from sinning, was the fact of the unity of His person. It is fallacious to say that the humanity of Christ could ever stand alone and be unsupported by His Deity. The humanity of Christ was not, and could not be, divorced from His Deity, nor could it ever be in a position of uninvolved responsibility. Being God, He cannot and not merely would not sin. He is “the same yesterday, and today, and forever” (Hebrews 13:8).

Because He was man, He could be tempted, but because He was God He could not sin, since there was no sin principle in Christ that could or would respond to temptation to sin. The assumption that if Christ was unable to succumb to temptation, then there is no genuine temptation is wrong. The Bible says Christ did experience genuine temptation (Heb. 4:15). Each one of us is fully human. Each one of us has been genuinely tempted. Yet, all of us have successfully resisted temptation at one time or another and not sinned. But because you did not sin, would you argue that the temptation was not genuine? Because Jesus did not give in to temptation does not mean that the temptation He faced was not genuine.

The reason He did not give in to temptation was because He was God and it was impossible for Him to sin. But Jesus both understood and experienced genuine temptation, yet He did not sin. We are told in Scripture that God is infinite, holy, righteous, omnipotent and immutable. Since He is immutable, then He is always holy and righteous. He will never change. It is impossible for God to sin or to do evil. “Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever” (Heb. 13:8). That means He is unchanging. Therefore, if He also is God and man in one person, and Scripture says He never changes, then He could not ever sin.

“So, was Jesus not virtuous all His life?”

One does not become innocent, one is innocent, a state of being that is worthless until it becomes virtue. Virtue is demonstrated moral excellence. Jesus was virtuous all of His life as God, but it was demonstrated by His obedience.


3,490 posted on 03/05/2008 11:14:41 AM PST by blue-duncan
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