Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
And most definitely can sin. But that's clear from the evidence.
Not since the ascension, but in one of the most unlikely spots, he revealed himself as Messiah, one criminal to another, while both were undergoing capital punishment. Even one of the guards recognized him while being executed. Using that as an example, if Christ came as a homeless person, those called would recognize him, just as they will the “thief in the night”.
Yes, that's a good point. I was thinking of the story of Cleopas (and friend) on the road to Emmaus. After reading it again, I suppose they weren't technically believers at that time, which supports what you're saying.
All of the above is true hosepipe. Yet we Catholics hold that, on questions of faith and morals, the Vicar of Christ on Earth is infallible.
This is because he, a mere human being, is called and consecrated to the Holy Church that Christ gathers to himself on earth. As occupant of the Throne of Saint Peter, the Holy Spirit constantly attends him, and by His Grace, sees that he is not misled into the snares of untruth.
Picking up on something you've said around here recently, I know you regard the "sheepfold" of John 10 as a sort of "pen" or "prison"; and that you regard this as a metaphor for organized churches. I regard the passage as referring to the place wherein the "sheep" are in maximum safety -- safety from roaming predators, from natural (and unnatural) crises of all kinds....
The Good Shepherd does not want to throw His sheep into the slammer! He wants us to be safe.... And those sheep who know the Voice of the Shepherd, and follow Him, are safe.
Yet as Christ says, "other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."
Evidently, we are not quite there yet....
Yes, I think that's very insightful, Mark. While I don't happen to be a McCain supporter, I think if he won and by some miracle the Republicans took back the House, I think he would do a better job with the veto pen (or threat of it).
***Conservatives got the thing that corrupts most absolutely - power.
Yes, I think that’s very insightful, Mark. While I don’t happen to be a McCain supporter, I think if he won and by some miracle the Republicans took back the House, I think he would do a better job with the veto pen (or threat of it).***
That very well may be, but I’m not going to start believing until I see it. Right now, I’m not sure of either the House or Senate, but I think that they have a better job of taking back the House, given Nancy Pelosi’s dismal reign.
***Judas was also of the elect.. many christians and roman catholics have Judas picture hanging that they call Jesus.. Scripture says Jesus was homely.. The guy in the pcture is good looking.. probably Judas.. the Apostles accountant.***
You wouldn’t happen to want to share a little more information of just what you are talking about would you?
Nyuck, nyuck, nyuck. :)
That's a strange way to put it, but is it indicative of the Protestant/Baptist christology?
Jesus said He came to save, but under Apostolic thought no one was saved because He came
No, everyone was "saved" in a sense that everyone was offered a ticket to eternity who wanted it. But God was not about to carry anyone and the luggage to His train.
Therefore, Christ's work could not have been finished. We say His work on earth WAS finished as to salvation
Then what was +Paul preaching? Was Christ's own ministry not sufficient? And was His prophesy not the end of prophesies, but required a new revelation?
Being restored to the image of God is what we call sanctification and happens after salvation is already sealed by grace through faith
We never stopped being in God's image; we lost His likeness.
Since God's grace is not earned, for us, and it comes only from God, I suppose it could be compared to a magic wand
Forced conversion? Forced love?
I would agree with everything except to say that it applies to the WHOLE Bible, not just the Gospels
Oh, yeah, especially those parts of atrocities...
Then I shutter to ask what your opinion is of the OT
Ambivalence. It is quite alien. In some respects even pagan.
But even with the NT, if you throw human interpretation into the writing of it, then you must not have much use for it since human interpretation is always subject to error
NT establishes Christian core beliefs, Christ's divinity (John) and humanity (Synoptic Gospels), through the Gospels, and then through the rest of the books. Christianity is simply trying to imitate those core beliefs.
It's really that simple. It's life in faith. In that sense it is very close to Judaism. This is evident only in the East, where Orthodoxy is a way of life and the culture is inseparable from the faith. Even the worship is strangely reminiscent of Judaism.
So, if you wish to call a way of life in faith "works-based," then it is—the Jews call it mitzvot. Being a Christiana is not what one says but what one does.
have always said that your side has little regard for Paul, and the response is always that he was right but we misinterpret him.
No, the Church side has incfreidble regard for St. Paul. We read his epistles every Sunday before reading the Gospels. I am not sure why his epsitles are read, given that they were swritten as admonition and guidance intended for aberrant churches.
Yes the Church (East and West) says that the Protestants misinterpret St. Paul. But the Church doesn't really explain how, any more than it explains why our fasting involves abstaining from animal products three time a year for 40 days (clearly an innovation unknonw to early Christians).
Of course, Paul is theology; fasting is discipline. Not the same thing, but nonetheless indicative of the fact that the Cbhurch does little to explain certain things. I, more than most people I know, do have issues with that. Although I am willing to give the Church the benefit of the doubt, I reserve my judgment until shown otherwise.
St.Paul was crucial for the Church to survive. He had the thankless task of "selling" modified Judaism to pagan Greeks and Romans. Without him there would be no Church today.
That doesn't mean that his theology is necessarily what the Church crystallized as the core Christian beliefs. The idea of Christ's divinity was more of a process than something the Apostles took for granted. The NT shows a gradual development in that regard.
It is important to note that all christological heresies draw their material from the NT! They use Christian scriptures to prove what the Church calls heresy. Arians ("the Father is greater then I"), Adoptionists (Christ's baptism), etc. How is that possible? Precisely because of the human element of the New Testament (just as there is a human element in the Old Testament) writings.
Now you are confirming what I said since you are saying that he was making it up (or "could have been") through his own interpretation. That's not something anyone can be sure of.
How can I know if +Paul was "making it up?" He says Christ spoke through him, but why should I believe him? He also claims it is "his gospel." He taught what he believed was right. I have no way of knowing if that is what Christ told him to teach. I doubt that Christ had waited for Paul to tell "the rest of the story," or for "John" to reveal when He was on earth.
Nothing needs to top the Gospels. All scriptures are equally true
But not all equally Christian. So, when we see the NT quoting verbatim from the OT, that tells you NOT that the Bible is God-breathed and without error, but rather that the OT must be wrong because you know that the ancients did not quote verbatim? Your view does appear to be very focused, I'll give you that. :)
The ancients quoted others as saying what they expected them to say not necessarily what thy actually said. Just as they used to name their books by the first few words in the beginning. Those are historical facts, FK. Sorry to burst your bubble. :)
You're only laughing at the words of Jesus Himself IN the Gospels: Matt 10:19-20 : But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it...but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you
Well, apparently none, save for +John, had the "eyes" and "ears" enough to receive instructions in this manner, let alone faith and courage to face whatever for the Lord. And which of them was arrested? +Paul was and he pulled out a Roman citizenship. And +Peter was arrested and the angel broke down his jail and let him out. None of them quotes anything being said but the Spirit of their Father. They all denied Him ether by running away or outright denying him (+Peter).
John 12:49 : For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it
That must be "music" to Arians' ears.
I think he is implyiong that icons of Chirst really represent Judas. Then again he may have left the planet.
Actually the sheep form their own sheep pens.. its always been true.. The lord is the gate to the sheep pen.. and he beckons them OUT.. by his voice.. and some follow him, some do not.. the synagogue is also a sheep pen.. Men have a tendency to organize as "clubs".. Its true.. Even within the pens there are cliques.. same is true with the reformed and with the orthodox.. monkdoms and variations of obsession.. i.e. many kinds of Baptist and RCC "groups".... sub-pens..
Is this all thought out (by me)?.. NAH!.. but the metaphor seems to work quite nicely.. And it explains(one explanation) how the Body of Christ can be varied..
Nah just getting snarky about the alleged picture of "Jesus".. He probably looked like a Lubavich orthodox Jew.. more or less..
Can you give an example of where the Evil One accurately quoted scripture?
"Accurately," according to whom, FK?
It is rather pathetic that Bush is whining about not getting his security law renewed because we are "losing ingtellingence," while our southern borders remain porous, if not wide open, in large part because of lack of the chief executive's will to secure this nation from illegal entriy of terrorists and possible epicemics.
Speaking of intelligence, his former "brain," Mr. Rowe, admitted the other day that the reason our young people are dying in Iraq is, well, not security but the price of oil. How pathetic is that? Especially given that the oil was only $37 a barrell when Bush decided to invade Iraq. His glaring "success" is evident at the gas pumps.
Someone is making a profit! I wish he had as much resolve to defend this nation's security by going after the unknown number of enemy combatants who could have slipped in during his administration, as he has been instrumental in helping those in oil business almost tirpple their profits in merely 7 years. Talk about priorities!
The underground economy would mushroom to before unseen heights, and all the criminals, and terrorists (as you correctly pointed out), would still freely come over.
What underground economy? If you penalize greedy and unethical businesses that hire illegals, sooner than later the source of jobs for the illegals will dry up.
What we are doing is trying to keep unwanted visitors out of the house by locking up all doors and windwos but leaving the back yard porch door wide open!
That's easy! God doesn't want them to! Don't you get it? The rich are rich because God wants them to be rich. And the starving are starving because God wants them to starve. And the evil and cruel ones are doing their work because God uses evil,among other things, to fulfill His "plan." It's all part of the "plan."
I realize the following will garner additional clueless derision from the uninformed . . .
However, the implications for RELIGIONS and AUTHENTIC CHRISTIANS are real and sobering . . . and closer than ever before as these docs attest . . . therefore, I dare not omit the ping to all hereon to this thread:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/1980066/posts?page=3
***Christ finished His role on earth toward the salvation of the elect. All of their sins were then paid for in full (within time). All of His actions were predestined by God, ***
Are you saying that Jesus is subordinate to God?
***Then I shutter to ask what your opinion is of the OT.***
An oral history of God trying to get the Jews to be saved.
***Nothing needs to top the Gospels. All scriptures are equally true.***
But some are more important. A historical list of begats is not as important to our beliefs as, for instance, the Sermon on the Mount.
***If it’s good enough for Jesus, I would think it was good enough for the authors of the Scriptures. :)***
If the KJV was good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for us. :)
***He probably looked like a Lubavich orthodox Jew.. more or less..***
He may have, He may have looked like something else. Who knows?
***Can you give an example of where the Evil One accurately quoted scripture?***
Then the devil took Him into the holy city; and he had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, “If you are the Son of God throw yourself down. For it is written, ‘He will give His angels charge concerning you,’ and, ‘On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.” - Matthew 4:5-6 ***
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.