Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
I don't know. I have difficulty believing that when He said "it's finished (accomplished)" He meant that St. Paul was supposed to add to His teaching because somehow it wasn't finished, that somehow He left his mission incomplete!
Well, I suppose we have a great deal of disagreement over exactly WHAT was finished. Since I believe that the Bible is God's revelation to man, and none of the NT had been written yet when Christ died, I KNOW the "it" could not have referred to that. The "it" refers to Christ's complete, final, and total atonement for the sins of His elect. If true, then His death has meaning. If all Christ did with His life was make it possible for us to save ourselves by doing enough works, then I consider it a cheap death because not a single person enters Heaven JUST BECAUSE Christ died.
As for Revelation, was not Christ Himself the fullness of God's revelation? We needed Revelation on top of that? As if Christ didn't finish His mission?
I'm not sure what that means. The fullness of God's revelation could be expressed as Christ Himself, plus the Holy Spirit, plus the Scriptures, plus creation itself, and perhaps other things. (I think AG has said something very close to this before.) Anyway, the full revelation of God is certainly more than one group of men's interpretation of the Gospels alone.
Any cursory study of ancient manuscripts will tell you that ancient writers use quotes in a distinctly different manner then we do. Ancient usage of quotes is not verbatim transcription of someone's utterances, but what the author believed that someone intended to say. This flies in the face of usage of quotes just as our terminology (coming from OT) is given Christianized meaning which differs from that in Judaism.
That can't be. NT quotes of OT statements are VERBATIM. In the desert, Jesus quotes verbatim. It is satan who misquotes scripture, as he did when he lied to Eve about what God said. Under what you are saying your reverence for the Gospels would have to be thrown out if all it amounts to is the "best efforts" to remember specific conversations from decades earlier. Nobody could do that in such detail (on his own).
I'd bet that my thinking tends to err in a panentheistic direction (as a, I say hopefully, redeemed pantheistic attitude), to the extent that my (I do not like this term) "spirituality" (new project, find a better word for that) has come from intense engagement with "nature". The first two times God snuck up on me and hit me on the head were when I was outdoors, once gazing at a lane of Laurels in bloom and once bow-hunting bunnies. AND pre-Xtian influences were Plato and Plotinus.
BUT I think you're giving Aquinas a bad rap, maybe, in this way: I think he thinks we can know that there is a God by reason, but we can't know God or know who he is by reason. (Since I'll be at church later on I'll try to tackle the most Thomistic of the guys and ask him if that's a fair glib summary.)
(BTW: despite bad temper, I am actually very patient and willing to let things take their course. What may strike folks as me being surprised by the unexpected may be me just saying,"At last, here we are!" I know that some things just take time and that if you take the top off the kettle it'll just take that much longer to come to a boil, while if you sit back, sooner or later - Sholem aleikem! - it's boiling!)
And for another inflicting of my self on the conversation, I DO like "process". My favorite part of bridge is the bidding - because of the requirement that two people communicate and plan and reach an agreement in a highly artificial and stylized language.
” For the record, it is always a blessing to be falsely accused for Christ’s sake.”
I am stunned! Do you honestly believe that our questioning of your bona fides, your motivations, the substance of your demonstrations of piety and the innovative content of your postings means you are being falsely accused for Christ’s sake??????????????????????????? What incredible presumption! You are being questioned, accused if you will, on account of the the content of your posts which I suggest are not born of Christ but rather of a more mundane source.
By the way, is there a reason for the idiosyncratic font on your postings? Is it to designate the word of God on FR per A-G or is it simply a way of saying “look at me”?
I know the reason for A-G's font. It's to make me feel old. Itty-bitty letters, man .... Jeesh!
“I’m always willing to learn more about Greek theology, K.”
Centuries before +John of Damascus, the Cappadocian Fathers, in discussing God using apophatic theology, said “I believe in God; God does not “exist”.” Its a provocative statement at first blush, but if you think about it and about God, it is of course perfectly true and in a way speaks about an uncreated energy of God, though perhaps it says more about the source and nature of “existence” than it does about God Himself.
Yes. You know that I am a Reformer, yet there is a way that I can agree with much of this. I agree that God is not impressed and won't respond when the non-elect stamp their feet, etc. Anyway, when God changes the heart of an elect, it is not necessarily an instant happening. Often, it is a gradual process. So, for His elect, I would say that God does whatever level of convincing that is required, according to God's design of the person. I, for example, am a "sledgehammer" guy (referring to what is needed). So, that's what God used after I rejected the initial "tugs". It wasn't that God "kept on trying", it was His entire plan all along that it would take exactly as long as it took. And of course I learned throughout the whole process, to my benefit from then on. :)
Thank you so much for reprising it here, dearest sister in Christ!
Considering the cost and the "efficacy" in such case, it's not worth tax-payers' money.
Oh, I'm not so sure. If we just considered the cost of every new person per year without a wall in terms of health care, prisons (along with the societal loss because of the crimes committed), and free education how long do you think it would take to pay for a wall? I've heard estimates that it would cost about $9 billion for the whole wall. It would pay for itself very quickly I think.
FK: "I'm not sure that a president really has the clout to pressure local law enforcement anymore."
Sure he does. One way to do it is through Congressional allocations of federal money. The President has a lot of clout, especially when it comes to homeland security. We are talking national borders here.
That's a good point. A motivated pro-border-security President could probably make things happen. I'll give you that one.
Be careful how you judge, dear Kolokotronis, lest ye shall also be judged.
An Eastern Orthodox, an American Baptist (or a member of any other reformed confession), and a Roman Catholic are to my way of thinking and believing all members of the One Body of Christ. While we revere the particular traditions to which we belong, we are finally all united in Christ.
It distresses me to no end that Christians should dispute and quarrel with one another.... Especially these days, when our Christian culture is under implacable attack, we ought instead to stand united against the Common Enemy.
My two cents, for what it's worth.
Here is the promise again:
All of us who have been the object of such false accusations should be rejoicing! In a meager way perhaps but nevertheless, suffering such things makes us a partaker with Christ:
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us. – Romans 8:16-18
Your post 2829 for instance makes an oblique reference to Orthodox Christians being accused of worshiping “stumps.”
Dear Kolokotronis, if that is a false accusation you and your fellow Orthodox are suffering for Christ’s sake, you should never be upset over it – or meet fire with fire. You should be rejoicing as I do because of the promise.
When I am called “Gnostic” or “Heretic” or “Apostate” or “Infidel” – or when I am accused of demonic ESP or snake handling or Spiritual shallowness and other such things, I rejoice! And no matter how initially shocking the charge might be, the above promise comes to mind - as does this warning to me which tempers my reaction:
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.
Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. - 1 John 4:7-11
I’m trying this one without the font size html. Please let me know if it is more readable to you.
Maranatha, Jesus!!!
To God be the glory!
Personally, I prefer the ten-point font size....
What a marvelous, beautiful, gracious essay/post, dearest sister in Christ!
And I too much prefer this size font!
Why are you shouting? I could hear you just as you were.
I have no idea. It seems like everything that could have gone wrong for true conservatives, did go wrong this time. I just hope this cycle is a one-time anomaly.
INDEED.
Was wondering how you were going to comment. LOL.
All very fitting comments in this string of them . . . as usual.
” Your reply is very curious, dear Kolokotronis – because instead of receiving the promise as a Spiritual Truth applicable to all of us Christians you have evidently presumed that the promise applies only to me.
Here is the promise again:
Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great [is] your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. - Matthew 5:11-12”
Curious? Like I said, you are being questioned because of the content of your posts which I believe have a source other than God. Your comments remind me of a convert couple at our parish many years ago who became convinced that any use of the Gregorian calendar by The Church was heretical, not a violation of a disciplinary canon but heresy. When very few people were interested in what they were spouting off about, they sent a mass email to everyone outlining their position and announcing they were leaving for a particularly rigid, almost cult-like group which claims to be Orthodox. When the priest confronted them about their pride, they announced that, “Like
God’s Holy Apostles, we are called to suffer for the Faith.”
They got laughed at. They left and years later came back... minus the pride and are now much cherished members of the community.
The 23rd Psalm expresses the joy and assurance we have in our walk in the Light - both in this mortal life and in the life to come.
Praise God!!!
Thank you for your reply and for sharing your testimony and concerns!
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