Conclusion from Peru and Mexico

ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.

My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.

I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.

It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.

I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.

Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."

FK: ...the Bible absolutely IS a historical record of what actually happened.

Actually? I would like to see how you integrated empirical evidence of prehistoric life with that claim.

I don't put man's understanding of science in 2008 above the Holy Scriptures. If we did that, then the Bible would be just another book. It might be tempting to laugh at the world's scientists of 500 years ago, but then we have to wonder what the scientists of 500 years from now will think of scientists today.

As you know, there is an open debate among Christians as to the age of the earth, and whether men walked with dinosaurs. There is also a debate about whether global warming exists and what its cause is if it does exist. I don't happen to agree with the political (oops, I meant scientific) "consensus" on the latter, and am also not inclined to blindly follow what current scientists say on other issues.

We don't have to "believe" in dinosaurs, FK. We know they existed and we know they are not mentioned in the Bible.

That is debatable. While the word "dinosaur" doesn't appear, because it hadn't been constructed yet, there are some references to "things" that "could" refer to what we call dinosaurs. This is from the website Got Questions :

Those who believe in a younger age for the earth tend to agree that the Bible does mention dinosaurs though it never actually uses the word “dinosaur.” Instead, it uses the Hebrew word tanniyn (pronounced tan-neen; Strong’s #08577). Tanniyn is translated a few different ways in our English Bibles; sometimes it’s “sea monster,” sometimes it’s “serpent.” It is most commonly translated “dragon.” The tanniyn appear to have been some sort of giant reptile. These creatures are mentioned nearly thirty times in the Old Testament and are found both on land and in the water.

In addition to mentioning these giant reptiles in general nearly thirty times throughout the Old Testament, the Bible describes a couple of creatures in such a way that some scholars believe the writers may have been describing dinosaurs. Behemoth is said to be the mightiest of all God’s creatures, a giant whose tail is likened to a cedar tree (Job 40:15ff). Some scholars have tried to identify Behemoth as either an elephant or a hippopotamus. Others point out that elephants and hippopotamuses have very thin tails, nothing comparable to a cedar tree. Dinosaurs like the Brachiosaurus and the Diplodocus on the other had huge tails which one could easily compare to a cedar tree.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with all this. :) My only point was to show it is debatable.

me: [God's] words are not corruptible

you: Then the Bible cannot be God's words.

The Word of God is Jesus Christ. He lives.

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. – Revelation 19:11-16

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. – John 1:1

I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. - Revelation 1:18

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. – John 8:58

We abide in Him and He abides in us:

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:9

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. – Colossians 3:3

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. - John 15:1-5

The words of God are spirit and life:

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. - John 6:63

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. - John 12:48

They can only be Spiritually discerned. The natural man cannot receive them.

Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:43

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. - I Corinthians 2:14

It is ludicrous to think that the words of God consist entirely of symbols in various human languages recorded onto rock, papyrus, computer media, etc. – or transmitted physically by pressure or sound waves.

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. – Genesis 1:3

For the word of the LORD [is] right; and all his works [are done] in truth. He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD. By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. For he spake, and it was [done]; he commanded, and it stood fast. – Psalms 33:4-9

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. [There is] no speech nor language, [where] their voice is not heard. – Psalms 19:1-3

Some, but not all, of the words of God have been captured for us in Scripture. But it is not the language or the translation or the media or our physical or mental abilities – but the Spirit – who gives us the “ears to hear” so that we can receive them.

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. – John 21:25

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.- I Cor 2:9-14

Every Christian – regardless of the label he wears - has the gift of “ears to hear.”

And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. – John 10:4-5

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. – John 6:44

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. - I Cor 12:3

The Word of God is food to us.

And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. - Matt 4:3-4

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. - John 6:35

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. - John 6:63

It is written … man shall live … by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Knowing the Scriptures - in whatever translation - is not enough. One must also know the power of God - Jesus Christ.

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. – Matthew 22:29

But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. - I Corinthians 1:24

To God be the glory!

***To me this [misunderstandings] suggests that we are missing the true area of our differences. THAT, to me, is the interesting area of question. There is SO much misunderstanding.***

I guess I don’t find that so unexpected. Different traditions use different terminology which leads to confusion. Writers don’t show their readers charity in their misunderstandings. Readers don’t show writers charity in their terminology. Writers don’t make an effort to use terminology that translates to a different tradition. Ground motives are left unsaid. Examples and idioms are used that are contextually situated. Concepts are left unpacked without examples. There are myriad variables that lead to misunderstanding. This has always happened. Personally I’m not so interested in these sociological and psychological variables but try to understand them as best i can.

That being said let me respond, in charity, to some of your statements.

As for the whipsaw effect with Transcendence and Immanence the point I’m trying to make is one of starting point. The initial point was that revelation is possible based upon Biblical anthropology. For those who hold to utter transcendence, say like the Greeks and Barth, the only way to know God is through experience. OTOH, someone like Aquinas will start with reason of sense expierence and try to rationalize transcendence. In the first case God is unknowable except by mystical experience and the second case God is knowable through reason based on sense expierence. Instead of starting within ourselves to know God we should always start with the transcendence that became immanent, Christ, through the prophets and apostles as recorded in scripture to filter all facts.

As for the rest of your post it seems your moving toward panentheism or as Barth described it, “God is being in becoming”.

FK: "In Christ's own words it SHOWED that the "lost sheep of Israel" included Gentiles. That is, EXACTLY as Paul said, BTW."

Nothing could be farther form the truth, FK. Your interpretation neglects the Nohaides. Chances are you never even heard of them, and how they fit into Judaism.

I don't see what relevance your term "Nohaides" has to anything we're talking about. Did "righteous Gentiles" get into Heaven without being saved? If not then Jesus came to save them too, just as Jesus and Paul both say. What does it matter how Nohaides fit into Judaism? The Jews were wrong about many things at that time.

I don't mean it as a cheap shot, but it seems to me that, when the Bible doesn't agree with Protestant theology, it is ignored (cherry-picking). Not only is there nowhere in the Gospels a verse that says Israel includes Gentiles.

Of course I would say it is the reverse. :) Take for example your above in which you admit to cherry-picking your interpretation of the Gospels while throwing out other NT scripture when you can't reconcile them. The Gospels are true AND Paul's writings are true.

St. Paul actually says that Jews are by nature somehow different from Gentiles: "We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles" (Gal 2:15)

He means by birth. He doesn't mean that Gentiles have a sinful nature and Jews do not. That would be ridiculous. Here is the word used:

NT:5449 phusis (foo'-sis); from NT:5453; growth (by germination or expansion), i.e. (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension, a genus or sort; figuratively, native disposition, constitution or usuage: KJV - ([man-]) kind, nature ([-al]).

Talk about cherry-picking! :) If Paul taught anything he taught that all men are equally guilty before God, and that all need a Savior, including Jews.

FK: "God intended what happened with the Jews all along."

Nope. He foreknew what choices everyone would make. What we do affects us, not God. God helps those who help themselves.

I know that many people think that God helps those who help themselves, but the truth is that it is the opposite. Again from that Got Questions? website I quoted earlier:

Question: "God helps those who help themselves - is it in the Bible?"

Answer: "God helps those who help themselves" is probably the most often quoted phrase that is not found in the Bible. This is actually a quote from Ben Franklin and it appeared in Poor Richard's Almanac in 1757. In fact the Bible teaches the opposite. God helps the helpless! Isaiah 25:4 declares, "For You have been a defense for the helpless, a defense for the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shade from the heat..." Romans 5:6 tells us, "For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly."

In terms of salvation, we are all utterly helpless. We are all infected by sin (Romans 3:23), and condemned as a result of that sin (Romans 6:23). Nothing we can do on our own can remedy this situation (Isaiah 64:6). Thankfully, God is the helper of the helpless. While we were still sinners, Jesus died for us (Romans 5:8). Jesus paid the penalty that we were incapable of paying (2 Corinthians 5:21). God provided the "help" that we need precisely because we could not help ourselves.

Apart from salvation, there is perhaps a way that the concept "God helps those who help themselves" is correct. As an example, if you asked me to help you move a piece of furniture, but then just watched me as I moved the furniture for you, I was not actually helping you. I would be doing the work for you. Many Christians fall into the trap of inactivity. Many Christians ask God for help, but then expect God to do everything Himself. They excuse this by pointing to the fact that God will provide according to His will and in His timing. However, this is not a reason for inactivity. As a specific example, if you are in need of a job, ask the Lord to help you find a job - but then be active in actually looking for a job. While it is in His power to do so, it is highly unlikely that God will cause employers to come looking for you!

The last paragraph is like the joke about the guy stranded on his roof in a flood. So, that part is true because it is not salvational. But we WERE talking about salvational issues with the Jews and Gentiles. "God helps those who help themselves" may be the most common form of stating a works-based salvation theology.

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