Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
Amen, Amen, Amen!
It is such a joy and blessing from God.
AMEN! AMEN!
Thx. Thx.
You are so welcome.
That is simply inaccurate. The Church spread Christianity all over the known world. To claim that because of the Reformation the Gospel is preached to all is simply factually wrong. If anything, the various Protestant groups are more interested in "evangelizing" Christians in Russia or Latin America, and converting them from being Orthodox or Catholic to various Protestant denominations, then going to those places where Gospels are never taught.
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Amen..
True... The Scriptures (at that time) by the RC were locked up in Latin (nobody understood latin but priests or the highly educated) locked up BY LAW in many/most places.. Some people were prosecuted for even having bibles or portions of bibles in latin.. i.e. Fox's Book of Martyrs(googleable)
Translation into the vernacular by reformers spread the Word of God.. Really at that time even most RC priests didn't know or care about the word of God except as dogma.. Some did but not all(Martin Luther)..
Excuse me but this is just gobblygook nonsense and Church revisionist history. The Church from its earliest foundation separated the inspired word of God. That was the entire purpose of identifying the Bible. There was NEVER any claims in the early church that the scriptures were only part of the story with more to follow later. In fact, Augustine writes that the purpose of separating the scriptures from the other writings were, in fact, to perserve them from the flawed man-inspired writings. They held the scriptures at a higher level than other teachings.
So, the correct interpretation of God's revelation, as understood and taught by the Apostles, is maintained in the life of the Church, which doesn't change
Which Church? The Orthodox or Catholic? Who has the right interpretation?
Our Divine Liturgy has not changed in at least 1,700 years,
Considering Christianity is 2100 years old you're short by about 400 years. Why did you change? And, btw, the Orthodox never has accepted a number of the very early creeds of the Church (e.g. Nicene Creed). You've may have accepted some of the early divine liturgy but not all.
In other words, whatever the mindset of the Church was 1700 years ago, when the Bible was canonized, is what we believe and practice.
Well, considering you have admitted that you don't buy into the OT and a significant portion of the NT, I would suggest what's in the Bible is not really what is believed.
Why, yes, God was kind in that regard, too. The Bible does come with instructions.
"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." -- Acts 17:11
Now this presupposes that our minds have been renewed by the Holy Spirit. In which case, we will read the words and understand them, comparing Scripture with Scripture. If not, the words will remain ink on a page and not much more.
The problem is that some men have been given ears to hear and eyes to see and a new heart with which to understand the inspired words of God, and some have not.
If our minds have been renewed by the Holy Spirit, we will read the Scriptures and know of our salvation by God's unmerited gift of faith in Jesus Christ.
"The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever." -- Isaiah 40:8 "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." -- Matthew 24:35 and Luke 21:33 "But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you." -- 1 Peter 1:25"The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." -- Psalm 12:6
I believe the Lord has done as He promised. He has preserved His word through all ages and turmoil and deceit and darkness, even when some corrupted men chained the Bible to their altar to prevent the world from reading the words of God and knowing the truth which sets men free.
“There was NEVER any claims in the early church that the scriptures were only part of the story with more to follow later.”
There is no such claim in Orthodoxy today (or ever as far as I know), nor did Kosta say there was, HD.
“They held the scriptures at a higher level than other teachings.”
Eventually, yes they did, but only because those scriptures were in accord with what The Church always and everywhere believed.
“Which Church? The Orthodox or Catholic? Who has the right interpretation?”
Do you mean “The Orthodox Church or Roman Catholic”? If so, then The Orthodox Church.
“Considering Christianity is 2100 years old you’re short by about 400 years. Why did you change?”
2000, but who’s counting, right? 1700 years is a very safe statement. In fact, the Divine Liturgy may not have changed in substance since the time of +James.
“And, btw, the Orthodox never has accepted a number of the very early creeds of the Church (e.g. Nicene Creed).”
HD, we wrote the Nicene Creed and recite it as it was adopted by the Council every Sunday. Where did you get this odd idea?
“You’ve may have accepted some of the early divine liturgy but not all.”
What parts of the “early divine liturgy” didn’t we accept, the “praise bands”?
The point is quite simple, HD, and Kosta stated it well. That NT you folks thump was put together by bishops who worshipped God and spoke about and believed about God the exact same way we Orthodox of today do. You people don’t. Now you may believe things about the bible, but you don;t believe what the men who assembled it believed. Now I know you know that and I know that doesn’t bother you. What I am curious about is WHY that doesn’t bother you.
Oh, with all due respect, please stop making things up. Latin was the legal language and the language of sciences (medicine, mathematics, you name it) and of literature.
Native languages were good enough for simple poetry,l but not for serious prose. Luther actually created German literary language by translating the Bible. Until then, ordinary every-day German could not express complex, spiritual concepts. English was not a literary language until the Norman invasion and introduction of mostly Latin vocabulary in it.
Even so, the language of the law and science as well as religion remained Latin. The advantage of that is obvious in that some kind of a lingua franca always existed, whether it was Aramaic, Greek, Latin, French, or English, to name onyl some.
Most people don't speak English in Hungary, or Poland, or Bulgaria, but you can be certain that those who are in medicine, or science, politics, etc. do. So, we could then say that America is holding English locked up when the majority of the people in second or third world countries don't speak it or understand it.
You and I both know there are pronouncements that have been made by the Orthodox Church that supercedes the scriptures. The conversation we once had about bishops being married comes to mind.
Eventually, yes they did, but only because those scriptures were in accord with what The Church always and everywhere believed.
Of course. But what that means is there were some things the Church had disputes about. It is these disputed areas that never were meant to be considered inspirational. The reason the Orthodox and eventually the Protestants left was simply because of these disputed areas.
2000, but who’s counting, right?
Well, I took a bit of liberty here but assuming our Lord was crucified around 25AD and the church was formed shortly thereafter, I would suggest I'm a bit closer with stating 2100 years than you are in stating 2000. But I'll split the difference and say 2050 years. ;O)
HD, we wrote the Nicene Creed and recite it as it was adopted by the Council every Sunday. Where did you get this odd idea?
Oh, I thought the fillique was in dispute. Was this resolved recently? ;O) That NT you folks thump was put together by bishops who worshipped God and spoke about and believed about God the exact same way we Orthodox of today do. You people don’t. Now you may believe things about the bible, but you don;t believe what the men who assembled it believed....What I am curious about is WHY that doesn’t bother you.
I would suggest the early western fathers were very much Reformers. After all, I got my views from reading them-not Calvin.
“The reason the Orthodox and eventually the Protestants left was simply because of these disputed areas.”
The Orthodox have never “left”, HD. We’re right where we have been for the past 2050 years. :)
“Oh, I thought the fillique was in dispute. Was this resolved recently? ;O)”
As a matter of fact the filioque is no longer considered “normative” by the Latins. In any event, the filioque was a later Western innovation which you Protestants picked up from your Latin parent. Orthodoxy recites the Creed as the council established it.
“I would suggest the early western fathers were very much Reformers.”
Oh...Greek speaking Western Fathers?
Like I said Kosta.. or the highly educated.. Course they were few and far between.. Royalty or the Wealthy which were usally the high born(Royalty and Servants/Bureaucrats) in some aspect.. The poor which were almost everybody was not educated "that way".. They indeed were schooled in the trades, farming, and what we call blue collar today.. Even in Italy they did not "speak" latin.. but Italian quite different from Latin..
Scripture was LOCKED UP in Latin.. as fully as secular law was locked up by the RC Kings and sycophants..
You are mixing discipline with theology. We don't believe God ordained bishops to be celibate based on what St. Paul had to say about chastity. They were his commandments, not commandments of God, in his own words.
The Orthodox did not leave because they changed nothing. They believe what they believed what the Church believed when it canonized the Bible, and they worship how they worshiped when the Church canonized the Bible, 1700 years ago.
Well, I took a bit of liberty here but assuming our Lord was crucified around 25AD and the church was formed shortly thereafter, I would suggest I'm a bit closer with stating 2100 years than you are in stating 2000. But I'll split the difference and say 2050 years
Our Lord was crucified in 33 AD (this is determined by the Jewish lunar calendar), sabbtarian (who believe it was 30 AD by the same method) notwithstanding.
It doesn;t take rocket scientist to figure out that 2008-33 is 1,975 years ago. Even after your "compromise" you are still off by 75 years. the exact 2,000 years will be in 2033.
The Church was formed not "shortly" after that but at Pentecost, 40 days after the Resurrection. The Church taught and preached without the written New Testament. That by itself invalidates "sola scriptura" as pure superstition.
Oh, I thought the fillique was in dispute. Was this resolved recently
The filioque was not an issue until the Photian Council in the 9th century, and that was (eventually) resolved in Photius' favor. Thus the filioque did not become a thorn until it was actually added by the Pope at the insistence of his Frankish protectors in the 11th century.
Again the Orthodox did not add or change anything, save make pronouncements to clarify what the Church always and everywhere believed in the face of heresies and deputes through Ecumenical Councils.
The Church rejected and still rejects the filioque and will forever unto ages and ages reject it as a unilateral change that does not correctly express the divine, and sole origin of the Spirit, as coming into eternal existence from one and only source, the Father.
That's different form rejecting the whole Creed, HD!
I would suggest the early western fathers were very much Reformers. After all, I got my views from reading them-not Calvin.
You are reading them the way Protestants read St. Paul. Orthodoxy is lex orandi lex credendi: we believe how we worship. We have an unchanged divine liturgy dating back to the times when the Church actually canonized the Bible, so we have reliable reference that we can go back to and verify that, 1,700 years ago, the priests were chanting the same service (the fixed part) they chanted every Sunday for the past 1,700 years.
What do you have? KJV?
That is all true, hosepipe, but their spoken languages were not developed enough to be used for anything short of folk poetry. Germany did not have a literary German language when Luther was translating the Bible from Greek and literally creating new German compound words that didn't exist beforehand, and with that the German literary language.
Sure, the Italians spoke Italian, but what did they write in it? Very little until after the Renaissance. None of the vernaculars was sophisticated enough to express biblical concepts; they were the tongues of peasants whose vocabularies were greatly impoverished and whose grammar was pretty much whatever they wanted it to be (sort of like modern American English!).
You can pretty much tell the extent of the Saxon dictionary by lookng for German words in the English language. If you come up with more than 500 words, you are good. You know, words such as man, house, ax, ox...
The Church did not lock up the Bible with Latin; there was no other alternative. And the reason colloquial language bible were not allowed is because vernacular was a vulgar language the way our street slang is, in addition to being impoverished in phraseology and grammar.
Part of the problem with the Bible is that even literary Latin, which was derived from Greek, does not fully convey the same concepts as the koine Greek. And Latin is a liturgical language!
The world languages are being challenged to come up with their own computer phraseology which was developed in English, or simply to bastardize the language by accepting them, no matter how awkward and unintelligible they may be.
This is because many languages are incapable of creating their own words that are not only equivalent in meaning, but in brevity and clarity. besides, such words make it impossible to 'chat' with others about anything hi-tech, medicine, etc.
For I [am] the LORD: I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall come to pass; it shall be no more prolonged: for in your days, O rebellious house, will I say the word, and will perform it, saith the Lord GOD. - Eze 12:25
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. - Matthew 5:18
To God be the glory, not man, never man!
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
GOD IS NOT STUMPED . . .
Nor do we catch Him by surprise.
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