Posted on 10/26/2007 9:00:59 PM PDT by topcat54
Is that what God inspired Isaiah to write??? Yes??? Well of course I believe it then...
What motive do you have for not believing God???
If God said he'll show up on a magic carpet sportin' a full blown 427 Chevy power plant, I'd believe that as well...
Maybe it's the company you keep...There's lots of folks in the scripture account who didn't believe God/Jesus and what did Jesus say about them???
Mat 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Take the blinders off...Start believing God...
So you are denying the reality of all those places in the OT where God said He would come against Israel and He didn’t show up in person but used nations to do His bidding. E.g.,
And I will come near you for judgment;
I will be a swift witness
Against sorcerers,
Against adulterers,
Against perjurers,
Against those who exploit wage earners and widows and orphans,
And against those who turn away an alien—
Because they do not fear Me,”
Says the LORD of hosts. (Malachi 3:5)
"Neo-Gnosticism"? Smokescreen! Your emperor has no clothes.
Only for one who walks by sight and not by faith.
Is that what God inspired Isaiah to write??? Yes??? Well of course I believe it then...
What motive do you have for not believing God???
PERHAPS by some fantasmagorical set of FANTASY FATES OF CONTRARIAN PRETERISM
The pooooooor limited Preterists have been limited to seeing Cecil B D'Mille's THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
. . .
in braille.
What should we call it . . . DE MILLE DISADVANTAGED PRETERISM?
or
CLOUDLESS REPLACEMENTARIANISM with OVER THE RAINBOW as it's principle doctrinal hymn?
WHY, WHY, WHY O WHY
Is it so terminally impossible to take God at His word with (A) even a shred of Holy Spirit wisdom and discernment; (B) a shred of horse sense--a stable mind being an asset in such undertakings; and (C) some measure of flowing with the whole of Scripture as well as the whole of the contextS--the context of the vers; the context in the whole of Scripture of the topic, issue and the context of all that in history past as well as prophetic 'history' future--is that really something only Dispies are up to?
Oh so now we have a preterist fourth "coming"??? Is that right??? or would that Malachi 3:5 be a first coming??? and that 70 AD the second coming??? Should we count those "not in the flesh" comings as comings along with the "in the flesh" comings or a separate category???
You know very well that the word "coming" in the New Testament means "a physical in person coming" except in the world of neo-Gnostic preterists. Keep using that preterist shovel -- your pit just keeps getting deeper.
Do you think God literally hopped on a cloud and rode down to Egypt and kicked over their idols?Is that what God inspired Isaiah to write??? Yes??? Well of course I believe it then...
What motive do you have for not believing God???
So none of the prophets, nobody who wrote the inspired scriptures, ever used metaphor or simile? The scriptural text is "flat".
PROPHETIC SCRIPTURE seems to be comprehensible Only for one those who walks by sight AT LEAST
(A) a shred of Holy Spirit discernment;
(B) the whole counsel of the whole of Scripture
C) SOME meager MINIMUM of God's Perspective as presented in Scripture;
(D) SOME meager MINIMUM AWARENESS, UNDERSTANDING of God's PREFERENCES, styles, habits, ways of presenting prophetic material--hiding in plain sight; mysterious puzzle pieces; brazenly blatant telling it precisely and literally like it is; symbolically; mixtures of symbolic and literal; layers of literal; layers of figurative, symbolic, literal;
(E) by FAITH
(F) with some logical, ACCURATE parallelism with HISTORY and an ACCURATE dictionary . . . .
and NOT by some fantasmagorical mixture of spaghetti/fruit salad upset convolutions of rubber Bible, rubber history books, rubber dictionaries, rubber logic books and sleep-lulling fantasies from hell.
“After Jesus was crucified, any further animal sacrifice for sin would have been, dare we say it, an abomination”
Really, then explain what the Jerusalem Church and Paul were doing offering sacrifices for sin 30 years after the crucifixion,
Act 21:18-27, “And the [day] following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. And when they heard [it], they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children, neither to walk after the customs.
What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave [their] heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but [that] thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written [and] concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them. And when the seven days were almost ended,....”
I wonder if, for example, during the time of the Black Plague or Napolean, some of the many Christians who thought they were signs of the end thought preterist Christians were “last days scoffers.”
I hope they didn’t because I believe that would be verging on bearing false witness against fellow believers.
The truth is Christ will return and there will be a new heaven and a new earth. That much the Bible tells us (Rev. 20).
BTW, I was reminded I should not have called you biblically “ignorant” because that’s personal. I should have just said you are biblically in error. I stand corrected and should not have lost my temper.
As for your remark about “preterists have nothing better to do,” I’ve been on the ping list because I agree with the position.
What’s your reason for being on these threads all the time?
This is what we call a proof by assertion. Dispensationalism is full of them.
Frankly, I do not know any such thing. But we both know (are painfully aware) that you have been unable to exegete one single text of Scripture, OT or NT, so it amazes me that you would claim to know anything in this regard.
I don't think you would know a neo-gnostic from a wash board.
Your emperor has no clothes.
Not like you guys think...For you, the entire book of Revelation is a metaphor...
Aside from the historical accounts, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, ALL the minor prophets, Psalms and most of the rest of the books are a metaphor to you guys...
You are bound and determined to 'bring in the Kingdom' FOR Jesus so you have to try to eliminate any reference to a future kingdom that is plastered all over the Bible...
The book I read says Holy Bible on the cover...I suspect yours says 'Holy Metaphor'...
***Nonsense, the verse you are using in Matthew 24 says clearly:
“and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory” [Mt 24:30]
You say that this was fulfilled when He came in 70 AD but His coming then was just not in the flesh. Well here is what John says about your confession:
“Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God, and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.” [I John 4:2,3]
“For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.” [II John 7]***
How old are you, cause it really does seem like we are talking with a child?
I am curious to your rule of interpretation...Why is this verse literal, but the rest of Revelation a metaphor???
How do you know this verse isn't a metaphor???
***Thanks for the ping - what a great thread! I loved this analogy from post 49:
A football metaphor may help us clarify the three eschatological perspectives:
Post-mil Christians have confidence in the Coach and His game plan. We assume we are playing for keeps, and playing to win. Our confidence in the coach translates into energy in the field.
A-mil Christians assume that the most we can hope for is a tie. Their game never gets too far past the 50 yard line.
Pre-mil Christians huddle in their own end zone, waiting for a helicopter ride to the other end of the field — at which point they plan to congratulate one another on what a terrific game they played.
Don’t know about you, but I want to be in on what my God is up to. I want a piece of the action!***
Amills don’t believe in a “tie.” We just deny the metric Post-mills use to measure victory. My good sister, doc, you never responded to my point about the Acts 19 verse you used to promote the idea that the word of God prevailed. If you remember, I noted that this prevailing was not in the way Post-mills talk about the prevailing of the word of God.
***Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven***
Funny you should bring up this simple gospel verse when it actually denies the timetable of Dispensationalists and Premills in general.
Note that this is about the age of the preaching of the gospel.
Note that there is only one seperating of the wheat and tares.
Note that all the tares are burned.
Note that it happens at the end of THIS age.
Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
Note that there is not a spec of Dispensationalism and the only “rapture” spoken of in the verses is the rapture of the tares out of the midst of the wheat for the purpose of being burned.
***Almost...Except the ‘Coach’ is the one with the game plan...
In fact, we are not in the end zone...We’re on the bench...
The ‘Coach’ centered the ball for us...He then received the ball from the center, mimicked a handoff to Himself coming thru the backfield (which completey faked out the Preterists on the defensive team); He then faded back and passed to the downfield receiver, the ‘Coach’ and the ‘Coach’ cart-wheeled in for the TD...
We did’t even have to play...***
I suppose this mindset is why I see so many Christians today that sit around on their lily white rumps waiting on God to do it all. They gather in their holy huddles at church, praising each other and praising God, expecting him to do it all.
“So you are denying the reality of all those places in the OT where God said He would come against Israel and He didn’t show up in person but used nations to do His bidding.”
So where in the Old Testament does God say “and you shall see Me coming...”. What they experienced are the effects of God’s actions but He does not say they will see Him like the promise or threat in Matthew 23, 24 and 26. In fact Matthew 23:39 says they will not see him until he comes in His glory so that 70 A.D. could not be an appearance.
It also could not be his coming in judgment since no one recognized the event as the judgment of God, so no one saw him. What good does the punishment do if the wrong doer does not recognize it as such? All that it did do for Israel was confirm in them their victim status as the suffering servant of Isaiah 53.
If you can't bring yourself to answer that question then ask that 5th grade child in your midst. He's probably smarter than a preterist.
***”But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat” [II Peter 3]***
So, the coming of the Lord will be accompanied by the disollution of the elements. Well, that certainly doesn’t jive with the Dispensationalists timetable.
I realize you must still be struggling with the issues I raised in post #734 so I will not distract you by replying to this post at this time. Perhaps the Greek and Hebrew are giving you a hard time.
In any event, I want to give you as much opportunity as you need to respond fully and carefully to that post.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.