Answering the "Replacement Theology" Critics (Part 1)

American Vision ^ | 10/7/2005 | Gary DeMar

[ovrtaxt]

I have to admit, when I hear somebody say "well the Bible PLAINLY teaches..." I immediately brace myself for some whacked out statement. And it doesn't matter who it's from.

Usually, it's not too whacky, but I am just about sick of that phrase.

[Uncle Chip]

Consider the source. I’ve read his posts and I’m not surprised he’d come up with that one eventually.

It's toooooooo bad that you failed to read John's epistle before spouting off about your preteristic Gnosticism. Keep using that preterist shovel of yours and you will only be digging a deeper hole for yourself.

[Uncle Chip]

I have to admit, when I hear somebody say "well the Bible PLAINLY teaches..." I immediately brace myself for some whacked out statement. And it doesn't matter who it's from.

Especially when it takes 10 books, 14 tapes, and 12 seminars in order to find that "plain" teaching.

[ovrtaxt]

Or even a series of TV shows where the current interpretation of scripture by the newspaper is constantly changing... meanwhile, you can send in your best love gift.... ugh don’t get me started.

[Uncle Chip]

“For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.” [II John 7]

I’m sure you know that ALL Christians believe Jesus Christ has come in the flesh or they wouldn’t be Christians.

And that His second "coming" [or subsequent "coming", or however one wants to try to dance around the plain meaning of that word] would also be "in the flesh", or they wouldn't be Christians, would they???

The above verse is about Christ’s FIRST coming, and you know it.

and about His FIRST ethereal coming in 70 AD [not in the flesh] that is propagated by today's neo-Gnostics. And if you didn't know it before, you know it now.

[topcat54]

Especially when it takes 10 books, 14 tapes, and 12 seminars in order to find that "plain" teaching.

Sounds like dispensationalism to me.

[Quix]

Thanks for your kind words.

I believe that THE RIGHTEOUS SHALL TAKE IT BY FORCE . . . is true but something we have little understanding about yet. And that has to be coupled with THE WEAPONS OF OUR WARFARE ARE NOT CARNAL . . . but the bringing down of strongholds [in the spiritual realm] . . .

I believe that the righteous living through the Great Tribulation in the flexh will be few indeed but that someone must be around to repopulate the place . . . supernaturally protected by God . . . haven’t volunteered . . . besides . . . have no interest in reversing a vasectomy or even getting ‘into’ all that again.

I think there are mysteries abounding in the whole topic area of what God will be doing with a few righteous folks during the Great Trib vis a vis taking rightful closing ownership back of the planet as satan and forces are finally routed. But a LOT of blood and mayhem between now and then with a huge reduction in population.

yeah, you’re probably right about ‘plainly’ but good phrases communicating such are not overly plentiful.

Yes, the underground church exercises great authority.

But the trappings of religion and globalist state religion are INCREASING, not diminishing. The labels are changing to make the transition slicker. THE WORLD RULER WILL BE WORSHIPPED AS GOD.

Anyway—thanks tons for your thoughtful response and for your needed encouraging words and affirmations.

LUB, TOO.

[Uncle Chip]

Sounds like dispensationalism to me.

I thought "The Notes" of your Schofield Bible sounded like that.

[Alamo-Girl]

I’m a third party in this debate because I personally eschew all of the doctrines and traditions of men across the board, leaning instead on the revelations of God the Father in (1) Jesus Christ His only begotten Son, (2) the indwelling Holy Spirit, (3) Scriptures and (4) Creation both spiritual and physical. In other words, I am a Christian plain and simple.

But because the conversation has turned to the millennial reign of Christ on earth – whether it is a literal prophesy or a metaphor – I now wish to offer some items for the discussion as I do have a clear spiritual understanding that the thousand reign of Christ on earth is God’s appointed Sabbath and a fulfillment of promises made to the descendants of Israel.

Please excuse the length of this post - it required a lot of background.

First, the leanings I have in the Spirit which guide this understanding: (1) that God keeps every single promise (2) that a thing is true because God says it our mortal logic notwithstanding, (3) that “all that there is” whether spiritual or physical was made by Jesus and for Jesus, (4) that from Genesis to Revelation, beginning to end, God is raising a family to live with Him in the new heaven and new earth. :

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it. – Isaiah 55:11

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: - Colossians 1:16

Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, - Ephesians 1:3-5

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. – Revelation 21:1

And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. – Revelation 21:6-8

For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. – Malachi 3:6

Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD. – Jeremiah 31:37

Point 1: Israel will become jealous of the Gentiles.

The descendents of Israel are distinct in the prophesy for the new heaven and new earth:

And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the names] of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. – Revelation 21:12-14

The relationship between the descendents of Israel and the Gentiles was prophesied in the Song of Moses which shall be sung in heaven along with the Song of the Lamb (Revelation 15:3) This is for cause, i.e. Israel is to become jealous of the Gentiles. (Deut 32, Romans 11) The two folds are distinct but converge in Christ (John 10):

They have moved me to jealousy with [that which is] not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with [those which are] not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. – Deuteronomy 32:21

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. – Romans 11:11

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd. – John 10:16

As far as I can see, Israel has not yet been moved to being jealous of salvation coming to the Gentiles which was theirs to begin with. They do not believe in Jesus Christ – there is no basis for jealousy …. yet. To this day they cannot see what has happened because they are blinded for our sake. (Romans 11) But the day will come when not only they – but all of creation – will see and understand what has happened (Isaiah 45:20-25):

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father. – Philippians 2:9-11

My musing is that the blindness will be lifted sooner than the second coming of Jesus - to provoke the descendants of Israel – so that the prophesy that they will become jealous of the Gentiles will be fulfilled. Further, I muse that the blindness will be lifted once all the Gentiles whose names are written in the book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of world are secured.

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. – Romans 11:25

Exactly what this looks like on a prophetic timetable of events, I’m not sure. It may have something to do with the two witnesses and the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation.

Nevertheless, I am certain that no thing and no one can stand between God and his adopted children – the ones whose names were written in the book of Life from the foundation of the world. I am also certain that no one can come to Jesus except the Father draws him and that no one can come to the Father except through Christ. I am also certain that the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. – Romans 8:38-39

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. – John 6:65

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. – John 14:6

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance. – Romans 11:26-29

Point 2: The 1000 year reign of Christ on earth fulfills the “realistic, national” part of God’s promise to the descendants of Israel.

Israel has long viewed God’s promises through the lens of the physical and national – a promised earthy land living in peace with the surrounding nations and the Messiah as their righteous king, heir to the throne of David. Yet over the last few millennia, they have come to understand there is another promise of the Messiah – a preexistent Messiah, transcendent and universal.

But as mortals are so often wont to do – and surely due to the blindness spoken of in Romans 11 - Israel sees these prophesies as irreconcilable, i.e. the Law of the Excluded Middle, it must be one or the other, either/or. See Jewish Encyclopedia on the Messiah.

Likewise they may be blinded by the Law of Identity, being able to recognize the Messiah as a single identity appearing but not coming twice – first as the Lamb of God and then again, at the end of this age, as the Lion of the tribe of Judah. (Revelation 5)

We should not make the same mistake in our discernment. Jesus Christ is everything He says He is – our mortal logic notwithstanding:

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. – John 18:36

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. – Revelation 19:11-16

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. – Revelation 20:1-5

From the foundation of the world, realized in the new heaven and earth – Alpha and Omega - Christ is the fulfillment of the “transcendent, universal” prophesy – the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, God enfleshed, the propitiation for our sin, resurrected. His thousand year reign on earth is the fulfillment of the “realistic, national” prophesy Israel has long believed. The “signs of the times” for both prophesies overlap (Psalms 22, etc.)

Point 3: The 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is God’s Sabbath.

First, the Sabbath has a deeper prophetic meaning than a simple observance:

For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh [day] on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this [place] again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his. – Hebrews 4:3-7

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ. - Colossians 2:16-17

This is not a new belief but an ancient one. Moreover, the belief itself – while somewhat retained with Jewish mystics - was discarded by the Catholic Church and I suspect from there spread to the Reformers who have not yet picked it up again.

On another thread, one of the Orthodox posters testified that the Church intentionally discouraged apocalyptic beliefs because it was apparent that Christ had not yet come again and likely would not come any time soon. (II Peter 3) Indeed, to this day, some beliefs – Orthodox, Catholic and evidently many Protestants - either ignore or discredit Revelation altogether.

But whatever the reason, the insight of the Sabbath being the thousand year reign of Christ on earth has been pretty much lost. Then again, all things work together for the good for those who love God and are called according to His purpose. (Romans 8) And some things are withheld from us until the time is right. (Daniel 12:4, Revelation 10:4) So no doubt this has all happened according to God’s will.

One of the manuscripts which was discredited by the Catholic Church is the Epistle of Barnabas (not to be confused with the Gospel of Barnabas, a late sixteenth century pro-Islam fraud.) The epistle is thought to be written in the first few centuries after the Resurrection – and is helpful here because it speaks very clearly of this Sabbath belief:

Of the Sabbath He speaketh in the beginning of the creation; And God made the works of His hands in six days, and He ended on the seventh day, and rested on it, and He hallowed it. Give heed, children, what this meaneth; He ended in six days. He meaneth this, that in six thousand years the Lord shall bring all things to an end; for the day with Him signifyeth a thousand years; and this He himself beareth me witness, saying; Behold, the day of the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six days, that is in six thousand years, everything shall come to an end. And He rested on the seventh day. this He meaneth; when His Son shall come, and shall abolish the time of the Lawless One, and shall judge the ungodly, and shall change the sun and the moon and the stars, then shall he truly rest on the seventh day. .

Yea and furthermore He saith; Thou shalt hallow it with pure hands and with a pure heart. If therefore a man is able now to hallow the day which God hallowed, though he be pure in heart, we have gone utterly astray. But if after all then and not till then shall we truly rest and hallow it, when we shall ourselves be able to do so after being justified and receiving the promise, when iniquity is no more and all things have been made new by the Lord, we shall be able to hallow it then, because we ourselves shall have been hallowed first. Finally He saith to them; Your new moons and your Sabbaths I cannot away with. Ye see what is His meaning ; it is not your present Sabbaths that are acceptable [unto Me], but the Sabbath which I have made, in the which, when I have set all things at rest, I will make the beginning of the eighth day which is the beginning of another world. Wherefore also we keep the eighth day for rejoicing, in the which also Jesus rose from the dead, and having been manifested ascended into the heavens. - chapter 15:3-9

Those who are interested, might wish to examine chapter 16 as well because it speaks of the temple. It speaks clearly of the physical temple being destroyed, that it was prophesied. It also speaks of the spiritual temple being built by Christ.

In one place it says ”So it cometh to pass; for because they went to war it was pulled down by their enemies. Now also the very servants of their enemies shall build it up.” So of course those who view prophesy with the lens of mortal logic discount the whole Epistle of Barnabas on the basis that the servants of the Romans did not rebuild the physical temple. But the prophesy does not suggest the temple rebuilt by the servants of the enemies of Israel is of necessity a physical one. Indeed, the spiritual temple is the focus of the remaining verses in the chapter. Nor does it exclude the possibility that the servants of Rome will physically rebuild a temple. Rather it speaks of the temple we are now and emphasizes the distinction between the Jews and the Gentiles. The bottom line again is that mortal logic applied to prophesy can result in skepticism. This was, btw, the same error noted in the Gospel of John (the presumption that the temple is physical):

Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body. When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. – John 2:19-22

But returning to the millennial reign of Christ on earth as the Sabbath: it is the literal understanding that one day to God is a thousand years to Adamic man. That was the Jewish interpretation of Psalms 90:4 (Sanhedrin 97a; Avodah Zarah Sa) and as we can see from the above, it was an early Christian understanding as well for hundreds of years (I suspect before the consolidation of authority under Rome):

For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. – Psalms 90:4 (a Psalm the Jews attribute to Moses)

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. - 2 Peter 3:8

This understanding of this meaning of “day” goes back to Genesis as follows:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. – Gen 2:17

And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died. – Genesis 5:5

In other words, these early apocalyptic Christians were not looking for Christ to return until at least two thousand years after the Resurrection.

The Sabbath could begin any day now, or it could be a few centuries away. Either way, we should be ready. (Parable of the Ten Virgins.) The Jewish year is 5768 from Adam’s first moment on earth – so under that calendar, Christ is not due for approximately two centuries and change. But using the Christian calendar, 6000 years more or less have already elapsed. The difference is a dispute over the amount of time the Jews were exiled in Babylon.

Summary

The bottom line is that both the natural olive tree (the physical descendants of Jacob, and God knows who they are) – and we who have been grafted in (the Gentiles who have been saved) – can look forward to God’s Sabbath rest, the thousand year reign of Christ on earth which fulfills the “realistic, national” elements of end times prophesy – as well as the never-ending new heaven and new earth which fulfills the “transcendent, universal” elements of end times prophesy. God's gifts and callings are without repentance - He keeps all of His promises. It is not an "either/or."

Between now and then, we Christians are, even while yet in the flesh, dead to this mortal life and alive with Christ in God. (Colossians 3:3) How much better it will be for all of us when we weigh anchor from our physical bodies – whether by mortal death or “rapture” – and even before the fulfillment of the remaining promises, most especially the new heaven and new earth!

For to me to live [is] Christ, and to die [is] gain. – Philippians 1:21

God’s adopted family was chosen from the foundation of the world. (Revelation, Ephesians 1, Romans 8) We are His children. He is raising us. (John, Romans 8) His wrath will indeed be poured out in the end as promised, but not on us, His adopted children.

For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? – Revelation 6:17

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, - I Thessalonians 5:9

Indeed, it is the Lamb – and He alone – Who stands in the Father to accomplish His will through the end of this heaven and earth (Revelation 5) and the forever more of the new heaven and new earth (Revelation 21,22) which was known as the eighth day, the time of not counting, the Lord's Day we should remember each Sunday.

From the Parable of the Ten Virgins in Matthew 25, the promise to the Church of Philadelphia in Revelation 3, the promise in I Thessalonians 4, Romans 8:38-39 – et al – including the above, my leaning in the Spirit is that none of us who are alive with Christ in God (Col 3:3) shall endure God’s wrath. And yet there will be martyrs from the wrath of the beast – and those martyrs will reign with Christ in the 1,000 year Sabbath. (Revelation 20)

Maranatha, Jesus!!!

[wmfights]

I hope you don’t EXPECT them to make sense!

These are our brothers and sisters in Christ. They are our FRiends, just as you are my FRiend and brother in Christ. As I see it, we are discussing how to understand Scripture not whether we are saved by Grace Alone through Faith Alone. It seems that we can get a little super heated about this and we really shouldn't.

So in answer to your statement, I do expect them to have reasoned arguments. I may not agree with all of it, but they have made some good points.

[Uri’el-2012]

Found At Last: The Jewish Calendar’s 240 Missing Years

shalom b'shem Yah'shua

[wmfights]

Pre-mil Christians huddle in their own end zone, waiting for a helicopter ride to the other end of the field -- at which point they plan to congratulate one another on what a terrific game they played.

Why do you say this? The pre-mil Christians are busy trying to preach Christ Crucified to the ends of the earth.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for the link, dear XeniaSt!

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Personally, I see victory in the progress of the church- notably from the Reformation (on Oct. 31, calculating from the date of the 95 theses, we just completed a 490 year cycle, btw- 70x7 years...) on into the new season we're in. As we continue to slough off the trappings of tradition and religion, and get more in tune with the ruling anointing of every believer being a priest/prophet/king, we see greater influence and leverage in society. Not necessarily as the institutional church, but rather as individuals walking in power among the halls of law, education, board rooms, extending even to back alleys and every place in between. (The key here is walking in the power of the Spirit.)

Even in China, as you personally know very well, the underground church exercises great authority- enough to drive the commies to fear them, thus the persecution.

The escapist, denial theology of the Madeline Murray O'Hare era is thankfully being rejected, as we embrace the revelation and responsibility of sonship and being a joint/heir. It's a progressive revelation to be sure, but the strength of the former rain shall even be overshadowed by what is coming to us now.

Does it mean that every President throughout history will be a holy roller? No, but neither was Pharaoh during Joseph's time. Yet YHWH had His way.

Now, I understand that it's not all dancing through the daffodils, there will be lives, blood and treasure lost, but the Kingdom of God will advance into and overtake the kingdoms of this world. Christ in us, I believe, will accomplish this- as opposed to Christ personally after He physically comes back. I have to think like this, because anything less would be abdicating my commission from Him.

AMEN!

Christians on earth are indwelled by the Holy Spirit and commanded to preach the word of God to all men, confident that whomever has been given ears to hear will prosper by it. It's simply a numbers game. One hundred Christians 2,000 years ago; one billion Christians today.

I've been mulling over how to answer our FRiend Quix's many adjectives (biting my tongue when words like "demonic" are tossed around since eschatology isn't science or even definitive history, but conjecture over the future.)

And you seem to have answered him admirably without resorting to questioning his salvation or impugning his obvious love for the word of God.

So I'll just join you in greeting Quix as a "Kingdom builder," whether he knows he is or not. 8~)

And I really like your tag.

As a very minor aside, I was reading an article in this month's "Vanity Fair" about Michelle Phillips (of the Mamas and the Papas) who certainly has plenty to "talk about in the locker room" (Maude from "Harold and Maude.") She's weathered turbulent times, drugs, divorces, fame, poverty, riches, and the bottom line of this long magazine story was that she is happily living now surrounded by friends and family and spends a lot of time regularly working in a soup kitchen.

Considering the '60's, this is no small accomplishment. But the surprising thing about this story came at the end, when she talked about her daughter Chynna Phillips (of the girl rock band, Wilson-Phillips) and her son-in-law, Billy Baldwin, who are both born-again Christians with three children! I knew one Baldwin brother was a well-known Christian (Stephen), but I had no idea another one was along with his wife, Chynna, daughter of Michelle and John Phillips.

And so this story made me happy. Not only is Michelle Phillips a gracious human being, but she's managed to raise a daughter who, in spite of her heroin-addicted father (John Phillips), became a productive and fervent Christian raising a family of Christians.

That's progress. And when we look for it, we will find it.

[Quix]

GOODNESS! YA WENT & DID IT !AGAIN! CONGRATS!

Would have to read again, but you may have even articulated a nuznce or two I hadn't articulated to myself.

A slight quibble . . . can't 100% agree with:

The Sabbath could begin any day now, or it could be a few centuries away.

I think that the Sabbath/Millenium [as even Wallvoord would say] has to be at least 7 years or at the very least 3.5 years of THE GREAT TRIULATION plus 30 days away.

And without some significant adjustment in my eschatology, would have to begin before the last cohort observing Israel rebirthed in 1948 died . . . I say . . . at the outside . . . 2075.

But after over 50 years watching trends . . . I find it difficult to imagine how things with respect to the globalists and all their END TIMES prophecied related WORLD GOVERNMENT stuff . . . can be delayed anywhere near that long.

Comp glitches must clse n post

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I have to admit, when I hear somebody say "well the Bible PLAINLY teaches..." I immediately brace myself for some whacked out statement. And it doesn't matter who it's from.

Do you find some ambiguity in these verses?

"Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." -- 1 John 4:2-3

[Quix]

i RECEIVE YOUR exhortation n repent such all inclusive language/hyperbole on that score.

Alas, I think my expectations on that score have been pretty well burned to ash and mostly blown away far too many times to leave much residual left of much functionality.

I remain abidingly shocked at a deepening, broadening level. It really is an amazing thing to me

theologically, sociologically and psychologically to observe.

It is NOT just a set of differences in terms of Biblical perspectives, to me. Not sure when or why of all such shifts. But there has been a big shift on that score within me as I’ve read so many utterly outlandish statements as though they were Gospel truth. Still working on a reply to one.

Appreciate your spirit and exhortation, Bro. Never hesitate, with me, please.

[Quix]

Why do you say this? The pre-mil Christians are busy trying to preach Christ Crucified to the ends of the earth.

= =

INDEED!

And evidently likely to succeed to every people group within 12-25 years—I forget which it is—I think 12.

Another reason . . . to . . .

LOOK UP, OUR REDEMPTION DRAWS NIGH.

Another reason AD 70 just does NOT work.

[blue-duncan]

“but the but the Kingdom of God will advance into and overtake the kingdoms of this world. Christ in us, I believe, will accomplish this- as opposed to Christ personally after He physically comes back.”

Where in the scripture does it ever say that the “Kingdom of God will advance into and overtake the kingdoms of this world.... as opposed to Christ personally after He physically comes back”

Rev.20:7-9, “And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.”

If the Kingdom of God has advanced and overtaken the kingdoms of this world, how can this be?

[Quix]

Appreciate your patience, understanding and graciousness.

Nevertheless . . . such progress is part of the sweep of history, rush of history toward the prophecied END TIMES, not proof of the opposite.

Given the prospect of The Gospel being preached to/in the hands of every people group within the next 12 or so years . . .

CHRIST’S OWN PROPHECY VERBALLY GIVEN BY HIMSELF will be cominig true in our era . . . as sure a sign of the END TIMES as there can be.

I wish I could avoid the sense about the demonic. I did not want to go there. I have no other explanation nor any other sense in my spirit. It’s exceedingly disturbing TO ME.

The fact that others do not speak up on that score is not an accurate indication of their feelings on the matter, BTW. It seems that a lot my cohorts are happy to have me point man with their mostly silent/prayerful/freepmail supportiveness on a lot of points in this ball park.

I hope you know I would not be as strident if I didn’t feel compelled so in my spirit and particularly because I believe folks are needlessly at risk of hell because of that perspective. I realize it doesn’t match your theology but it does mine and is additionally exceedingly disturbing, TO ME.