Posted on 10/25/2007 9:24:05 AM PDT by NYer
The Other Christ: Padre Pio and 19th Century Italy, by the historian Sergio Luzzatto, draws on a document found in the Vatican's archive.
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The document reveals the testimony of a pharmacist who said that the young Padre Pio bought four grams of carbolic acid in 1919.
"I was an admirer of Padre Pio and I met him for the first time on 31 July 1919," wrote Maria De Vito.
She claimed to have spent a month with the priest in the southern town of San Giovanni Rotondo, seeing him often.
"Padre Pio called me to him in complete secrecy and telling me not to tell his fellow brothers, he gave me personally an empty bottle, and asked if I would act as a chauffeur to transport it back from Foggia to San Giovanni Rotondo with four grams of pure carbolic acid.
"He explained that the acid was for disinfecting syringes for injections. He also asked for other things, such as Valda pastilles."
The testimony was originally presented to the Vatican by the Archbishop of Manfredonia, Pasquale Gagliardi, as proof that Padre Pio caused his own stigmata with acid.
It was examined by the Holy See during the beatification process of Padre Pio and apparently dismissed.
Padre Pio, whose real name was Francesco Forgione, died in 1968. He was made a saint in 2002. A recent survey in Italy showed that more people prayed to him than to Jesus or the Virgin Mary. He exhibited stigmata throughout his life, starting in 1911.
The new allegations were greeted with an instant dismissal from his supporters. The Catholic Anti-Defamation League said Mr Luzzatto was a liar and was "spreading anti-Catholic libels".
Pietro Siffi, the president of the League, said: "We would like to remind Mr Luzzatto that according to Catholic doctrine, canonisation carries with it papal infallibility.
"We would like to suggest to Mr Luzzatto that he dedicates his energies to studying religion properly."
Moses and Elijah also appeared with Jesus during the Transfiguration, witnessed by Peter, James and John.
I am so sorry for your loss, tiki. :*(
{{{{{{{{{{Condolences and healing hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}
Have you had someone in your family die?
I’m not big on Pio or stigmatas, but a document from 1919? Paint me skeptical of that too...
Presumably the church would have investigated him back then...they essentially locked him up in the monastery for fifty years.
And why carbolic acid? That cauterizes wounds,i.e. stops bleeding?
Yes.
Okay. I get that. Can someone be a perfect Catholic and NOT ask saints to intercede for them? Can they just pray to Jesus straightforward, and not go through anyone else? Or would that be considered heresy in Catholicism?
Who said she couldn't?
By the way, my husband died 6 months ago. I talk to him all the time. Would any of you protestants like to accuse me of necromancy? Sometimes, I kiss his picture. Would you like to accuse me of idol worship?
Maybe in YOUR church people can be perfect protestants, but as far as I know, all Catholics are sinners, saved by the body and blood of Christ.
Why don't you ask your questions at a Catholic inquiry site? I'll tell you why--you don't want answers, you want people to admit you're right, and they're wrong.
I just admire "perfect" people so much..../sarc
Read Revelations 5:8 and we’ll see who the fool is.
That's a personal comment and not appropriate. How many hours a week do you think I spend studying Scripture? On what basis do you form your opinion of the amount or sufficiency of my Bible study,. You wouldn't be suggesting that everyone who studies the Bible "enough" would agree with you, would you?
If so, then you can just dismiss every disagreement with you on the same grounds. I've heard the argument before. When my daughter was five, she would say that everything she didn't like was "stupid." Among adults I usually get this kind of argument from liberal college professors.
Am I right in concluding from your second paragraph that you are conceding that it is appropriate to ask SOME others to pray for you? So you are abandoning the argument about why one should ask for the prayers of others when one can go to Jesus directly? In fact, you are saying or implying that that question was a red herring and the real issue is elsewhere.
As for your third paragraph, I haven't even entered the discussion at all, and seeing that the tone of the thread is antagonistic, I don't propose to enter it.
My comment was, and nothing you have subsequently said has argued against it, that you changed the subject from our initial question about intercession to a NEW and DIFFERENT question about the any kind of communication with the saints in heaven. And I didn't raise that argument for anything other than accountability. You raised the question; an answer was attempted; you ignored the answer and raised another question. That was all I said. You can reasonably infer other things from my frank (and grateful) declaration that I am a Catholic, but I haven't taken a particular stand in this discussion yet. I have only noted a particular effort at what looked like a dodge and not like a discussion among Christians.
Our having a different notion of Scriptural authority from ours does not necessarily imply that we don't study Scripture "that much".
Clinton? FDR? Alan Greenspan?
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/saints.html
I. We are One Family in Christ in Heaven and on Earth
Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family (”Catholic”) in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the “communion of saints.” There cannot be a “communion” if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.
Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.
1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist.
Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.
Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with “deceased” Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.
Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.
Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.
John 15:1-6 - Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.
1 Cor. 4:9 – because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth.
1 Cor. 12:26 - when one member suffers, all suffer. When one is honored, all rejoice. We are in this together as one family.
1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 - now we see in a mirror dimly, but in heaven we see face to face. The saints are more alive than we are!
Heb. 12:1 - we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses, our family in heaven. We are not separated. The “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) refers to a great amphitheatre with the arena for the runners (us on earth), and many tiers of seats occupied by the saints (in heaven) rising up like a cloud. The “martures” are not mere spectators (“theatai”), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience to God’s promises and cheer us on in our race to heaven. They are no less than our family in heaven.
1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 20:6 - we are a royal family of priests by virtue of baptism. We as priests intercede on behalf of each other.
2 Peter 1:4 - since God is the eternal family and we are His children, we are partakers of His divine nature as a united family.
1 Cor. 1:2; Rom. 1:7 - we are called to be saints. Saints refer to both those on earth and in heaven who are in Christ. Proof:
Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; 1 Cor. 6:1-2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1-2; 13:13; Rom. 8:27; 12:23; 15:25,26, 31; 16:2,15; Eph. 1:1,15,18; 3:8; 5:3; 6:18; Phil. 1:1; 4:22; Col 1:2,4,26; 1 Tm 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3; Rev. 11:18; 13:7; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6;18:20,24; Rev 19:8; 20:9 - in these verses, we see that Christians still living on earth are called “saints.”
Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10 - in these verses, we also see that “saints” also refer to those in heaven who united with us.
Dan. 4:13,23; 8:23 – we also see that the angels in heaven are also called “saints.” The same Hebrew word “qaddiysh” (holy one) is applied to both humans and angels in heaven. Hence, there are angel saints in heaven and human saints in heaven and on earth. Loving beings (whether angels or saints) are concerned for other beings, and prayer is the spiritual way of expressing that love.
Since None and All are being used, Jesus must be included in the none that are righteous and sinners...which is absurd.
Not all protestants. I learned that in my Baptist training as well, “we are His body, and He is our soul”—to quote a Michael Card song. :-)
Of course, other protestant religions may not emphasize that.
One of my favorite verses.
Thank you for that fantastic link to prayers to the saints.
Please don't one or two spoil it for the rest. We have many great Protestant brothers and sisters we can learn much from and share our faith with in Christ.
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