Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
You caught that, too, eh? It's the obvious conclusion. See post 7,660.
And here I thought that Calvinists were the exclusivist organization, because only they were preselected for the prize in heaven. At least that what they seem to say, that God MUST give them salvation because THEY have said so...
But really. I think it would be wiser to not type what you typed, since it makes you look pretty ignornant. A simple glance at the Catechism will show you are blurting out the usual "strawman" arguments. Since you undoubtedly have a Catechism (you seem to "know" a lot about what we believe, so I figure you have a Catechism...), I will just point you to paragraph 839-848. Come back and then tell me what you think about what you just typed...
Regards
BTW, the Sermon on the Mount and all the other things that Jesus said, were not to you either, but just to the immediate audience. Were you among the 5,000? Were you at the Last Supper? /sarcasm
Well let me fire up the handy-dandy scripture generator and crank out some.
I want one of those! It takes me such a long time to look things up.
Well, Harley is reading the Church Fathers. It is only a matter of time before he discovers how "un-Protestant" the Church was. Once he moves onto another subject that they write about besides free will, such as the Eucharist or Baptism...
Regards
Now that's making it personal, jo kus, and I know you are better than that. (Also, when hurling an insult, it's best to spell it correctly.)
God gives salvation to whom He will according to His unmerited, free grace, not through men's good works. I'll skip the catechism and let's both reread Ephesians 1 & 2.
RCC baptism is nothing like Protestant baptism. My children were not given some time-stamped free pass at their baptism. They were, however, baptized as a sign and seal of God’s eternal, holy and predestining love for His family.
Why do you say "if it was intended for someone else, we don't need to read it?" Are you saying that a poem is only worthwhile to the person it is written to? Are you saying that a story is not worthwhile to anyone else but the intended audience? Naturally, we, as Christians, can take something from the written Scriptures, but not because they are written - they are part of the teachings of the Apostles. Being Christians, Apostolic teachings have meaning to us. It doesn't mean that every verse applies to us literally.
Yes, Paul was speaking to the Thessalonicans, but the successors of the Apostles determined that those two letters were worthwhile reading for subsequent Christians. It doesn't mean that Paul was saying that ANYONE who reads that letter is "of the elect".
And naturally, one should consider what the REST of the Apostolic teachings found in the Scriptures SAY, such as:
And ye shall be hated by everyone for my name, but he that shall persevere unto the end, the same shall be saved Mark 13:13
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasures up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to everyone according to his deeds: to those who persevered in well doing, glory and honour and incorruption, to those who seek eternal life; but unto those that are contentious and do not obey the truth, but are persuaded by unrighteousness, indignation and wrath. Romans 2:5-8
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly persevere in the faith which was given once unto the saints. Jude 3
If you believe that the Bible was written for Christians for all ages, then you should heed ALL of it, like the parts about persevering in the faith.
Regards
The term "ignorant" (sorry about the previous spelling...) means that you were not aware of the Catholic teaching on the subject. That is clear - and I have posted you paragraphs that you may look through at your convenience. They were not meant as "hurling insults" - as you noted.
God gives salvation to whom He will according to His unmerited, free grace, not through men's good works. I'll skip the catechism and let's both reread Ephesians 1 & 2.
It is strange that you say that, because you post from your own catechisms more than any other Protestant that I know... We believe that the catechisms are a summation of our faith and are indeed taken from the Scriptures and teachings of our respective traditions in interpreting those Scriptures. As such, I will overlook your comment, since I believe we would agree on the utilization of a catechism and you just may not be taking your own use into consideration.
I pray that you have no hard feelings towards me - we both feel strongly about our respective positions.
Regards
No, a person has to command God to give to them first. Thus, you claim you are of the elect for heaven, because you say so. I find it interesting that a Calvinist would say this without realizing the irony of the attack!
Catholics do not believe that those baptized are necessarily going to heaven.
Regards
If you continue to presume what I read and believe, then you will continue to make assertions that are incorrect and ignorant. You have no idea who you are talking to, nor how much I know. It was YOUR assertion that Paul wrote the epistle for the Thessaloniacans, not mine. It was YOU who said he didn’t write it to me. Therefore, it is YOU who made irresponsible and unfounded assertions, not me.
“I would suggest this most likely is from one of Augustine’s earlier sermons.”
Actually its from the later, middle period and was not retracted at the end of his life.
HD, I’m always glad to see that someone is reading the Fathers! But try not to proof-text them, HD. Western Protestant exegesis doesn’t work well at all with the Fathers. They say all sorts of things. +John Chrysostomos himself opined that the Most Holy Theotokos sinned. Consensus patrum, HD, consensus patrum, otherwise reading the Fathers is simply an exercise in looking for self confirmation.
lol. I'm not the one calling Irishtenor, Forest Keeper, Alamo-Girl or 1000 silverlings "non Christian."
***Thus, you claim you are of the elect for heaven, because you say so.***
No, God says so.
Irishtenor's question was rhetorical. You've proven his point -- the Bible is written to everyone who reads and believes it, by the grace of God, and not just to the Apostles.
Bought mine on E-Bay :>)
Yes, I've come to admire the Westminster Confession of Faith and the Heidelberg Confession of Faith a great deal because every line is based on Scripture.
For me, I don't find that cohesion in the RCC catechism.
I pray that you have no hard feelings towards me - we both feel strongly about our respective positions.
I like strong feelings, jo kus, and I greet you as a brother in Christ and as a fellow Christian. 8~)
I don't call anyone a heretic. Only you know if your belief is heretical or not. Heresy being, by definition, teaching other than what the Church taught from the beginning. In that sense, I do say that Protestant theology is heresy.
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