Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
Exactly! If Christ died to pay in full for the sins of the entire world, then the entire world is forgiven and all men everywhere will end up in heaven and hell will be empty.
And that just does not compute with God's word.
Not one drop of Christ's blood was shed needlessly. Christ knows who are His, those who were given to Him by God from before the foundation of the world, for His glory and the welfare of His children.
Truly, God uses the examples of Paul’s conversion and the Holy Spirit being given to Cornelius to illustrate to us that His authority is not usurped.
Moreover, God keeps all of His promises – every single one:
I remember hearing Sproul talk about the fact that in every generation of the church, there has been great heresies, yet God continues to grow the church. Reform is simply part of this growth.
What's really astounding is when Christians don't understand and appreciate and thank God for the fact that they have been chosen by God from all eternity, and that they didn't do the choosing.
How much more sure and everlasting is God's eternal and fixed choice over men's changeable, wavering choices?
Wake up, Christians, to the full comprehension of the Good News!
My guess is they refuse to want to give God the glory for their faith because they have to give up on believing in their free will.
I don't see this conflict or choice. Plus it's seems a contradiction to choose to stop believing in free will.
The simple answer would be: "Faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ." If this is what you're looking for you can stop here.
This answer is true of my ongoing development of faith, but, if you're still here, I'll bore you more 'musings' as our friend would put it. Because it's an interesting question for me to explore.
I'm not sure that I was born with a childlike diffused trust in something larger; I think so. I am sure that whatever faith I had was gone after many decades of pursuing more darkness than light.
At the bottom - I certainly hope it was the bottom - I had a conversion experience. I would say my faith - trust and confidence in God - began anew here. A direct conscious experience of God's presence and love. Without His grace then, I don't want to think where I would be now. Surrender, giving up figuring it out, also had a great deal to do with it.
Though it certainly waxes and wanes, this experience, or the memory of it, stays with me very strongly. It is nurtured most by prayer and the sacraments, the more constant these are, the greater my realization of God's presence, and the more real my faith becomes.
It's not that God comes and goes, but that I come and go in my remembrance and attention and focus on God. He is always present, but to know this, I have to be present to Him also.
This may not be the proper answer for all Catholics, excepting contemplatives perhaps. I know some Christians hold that it involves choosing to believe. Perhaps I am a hard case, but this only raises more questions for me; questions that fade away in prayer.
I know that the usual method is "hearing the preaching of Christ" first, then faith. For me it was backwards: initial faith experience, then God's leading me to the Church, hearing Christ's words as if for the first time, the sacraments, deepening faith, spriritual practice, prayer, faith, and so on.
Put another way, my faith comes from being with God. This is my personal answer, and not one that I'm saying is the case, or should be the case, for others.
Amen. It's His show. He gets the name above the credits.
Refined. By that would you mean better?
So, anything touched by later reformers is superior to Calvin’s efforts.
Hmm. Let us examine that idea.
In 1792, James O’Kelly reformed his Episcopal Methodist congregation, and was eventually joined by Baptists Elias Smith and Abner Jones. Some more refinement on Calvin.
In 1801, Barton Stone reformed his Presbyterian congregation. More refinement.
They joined up to form the Christian Connection. More refinement. Two refinements up from the original Presbyterians.
Alexander Campbell and his merry band of Reformers joined up in 1832. Another refinement yet. A couple of refinements later, and we have the current day Church of Christ.
Aren’t you an Orthodox Presbyterian? Does that make sense, when here we have a perfect example of a church that is about 5 refinements up on the Presbyterians?
Prayer: why do we pray? Let’s examine the Lord’s Prayer, shall we?
Our Father
Although the Lord’s Prayer, the greatest and most comprehensive of Christian prayers, is addressed to “Our Father,” it is important to keep in mind something said earlier in the Catechism:
“God transcends the human distinction between the sexes. He is neither man nor woman: he is God (239)”
In other words, there may be sexists in the Catholic Church (as there are everywhere), but they certainly cannot justify themselves with the Catechism.
The reason we call God “Our Father” is for a disarmingly simple reason: Because we approach him only through the Son. We could not have approached the transcendent, omnipotent God so intimately otherwise. “We can invoke God as ‘Father’ because he is revealed to us by his Son” (2780).
Who art in Heaven
Very important to realize is the fact that “Heaven” is not necessarily a space occupying “location” per se. The Catechism calls it instead a “way of being” (2794). So we won’t be “floating up to the clouds” when we die - If anything, the book of Revelation depicts a heaven that comes down to earth, and the Christian understanding of eternity is located on a renewed earth.
The 7 Petitions
The First 3: THY THY THY
1. Hallowed by Thy Name
“The holiness of God is the inaccessible center of his eternal mystery. What is revealed of it in creation and history, Scripture calls “glory,” the radiance of his majesty. In making man in his image and likeness, God “crowned him with glory and honor,” but by sinning, man fell “short of the glory of God.” From that time on, God was to manifest his holiness by revealing and giving his name, in order to restore man to the image of his Creator” (2809).
2. Thy Kingdom Come A quick glance through these Bob Marley lyrics reveal the popularized Marxist critique that Christianity’s “kingdom come” leads to neglect of life on earth. But according to the Catechism, though we must “far from distracting the Church from her mission in this present world, this desire [for Kingdom come] commits her to it all the more strongly. The We need be careful”(2818). Though we do need to “distinguish between the growth of the Reign of God and the progress of the culture and society in which they are involved...” still this “distinction is not a separation. Man’s vocation to eternal life does not suppress, but actually reinforces, his duty to put into action in this world the energies and means received from the Creator to serve justice and peac” (2820).
3. Thy Will Be Done Here the word thy (not my) recalls the prayer of Gethsemane, and is indicative of love, for “it is characteristic of love to think first of the one whom we love” (2804).
The Second 3: US US US
4. Give us this day our daily bread This can be understood both eucharistically and for more literal hunger of ourselves and the entire world. This request for daily provision does not mean we shouldn’t work. St. Benedict said “Pray as if everything depended on God and work as if everything depended on you.”
5. And forgive us our trespasses The fact that the stipulation is added “as we forgive” is an astonishing limitation that God’s places on his forgiveness! “In refusing to forgive our brothers and sisters, our hearts are closed and their hardness makes them impervious to the Father’s merciful love” (2840). In other words, if we insist on the “right” to nurse a grudge towards someone, God may insist on his “right” to do the same to us! Ouch!
6. Lead us not into temptation With this we should keep in mind the distiction between trials which “are necessary for the grwoth of the inner man” and temptation “which leads to sin and death” (2847). The way to avoid yielding to temptation is through prayer and vigilance.
7. Deliver us from evil Keep in mind here our lesson from weeks past that Satan is real.
“In this petition, evil is not an abstraction, but refers to a person, Satan, the Evil One, the angel who opposes God. The devil (dia-bolos) is the one who “throws himself across” God’s plan and his work of salvation accomplished in Christ” (2851).
The Catechism also adds that “In this final petition, the Church brings before the Father all the distress of the world” (2854).
The Doxology
For the Kingdom and the Power and the Glory are yours, now and forever . “The ruler of this world has mendaciously attributed to himself the three titles of kingship, power, and glory. Christ, the Lord, restores them to his Father and our Father” (2855).
To conclude, here is a sampling of wisdom on the Lord’s prayer that Catechism brings forth from the early Church:
“Since everyone has petitions which are peculiar to his circumstances, the regular and appropriate prayer [the Lord’s Prayer] is said first, as the foundation for further desires... The Lord’s Prayer is truly the summary of the whole Gospel.” -Tertullian
It gives us “not only the things we can rightly desire, but also in the sequence that they should be desired.” -Aquinas
“Run through all the words of the holy prayers [in Scripture], and I do not think that you will find anything in them that is not contained and included in the Lord’s Prayer.” -Augustine
“[the Lord] teaches us to make prayer in common for all our brethren. For he did not say ‘my Father’ who art in heaven, but ‘our’ Father.” -John Chrysostom
Prayer is a petition, among other things. A petition. In which the person praying asks for something. A petition. What’s the point of asking if you know that you can never get what is asked? More mechanical activity?
Christ paid for everyone’s sins.
If they repent, then they are forgiven them. The payment has already been made.
The verses from John 17 pertain to the Apostles. Read the chapter in its entirety, along with John 13-16. Do you read nothing in context?
Misinterpreting Paul, Psalms, and now a lone foray into the Gospels is proving no better. I argue not with God but with those who misinterpet His words.
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child. But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak. Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver thee, saith the LORD. Then the LORD put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth." -- Jeremiah 1:4-9"Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows." -- Matthew 10:26-31"Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
God had the Church select the 72 Inspired books of the Bible. It’s not my fault if you have the abridged-by-man version.
If something was that important, don’t you think that He would have taught exclusivity instead of the 1500 year later version of exclusivity trumping the Christian inclusivity. You wanna try to explain the various commands such as the Beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount? Where Jesus and men apparently conflict, it’s the interpretation of the words of men that must be in error.
Paul does not trump Jesus.
I’m not entering into the ‘fairness’ dialogue. All I know is that God gives different gifts to all men. Sorry, I know that the parable of the servants is only Christ’s words, but maybe Calvin will provide a final approval.
"So what's in it for me?" is that it?
We pray for God's will to be done, as taught by Christ. In everything we ask. Not our will be done.
This is another of those Joe and the volcano moments for me.
Praise God!!!
If Christ paid for everyone's sins, everyone will end up in heaven. That's the deciding factor -- whether or not your sins have been forgiven by the atoning work of Christ on the cross. If He atones for all sins, all sin is forgiven and everyone ends up in heaven.
And Scripture denies this.
If God wanted all men saved, all men would be saved.
The verses from John 17 pertain to the Apostles.
LOL. Again, and over and over, you restrict Christ's words to a select few among the priestcraft -- the same select few to whom you impart mystical powers which they have no right nor ability to perform. Christ ordained the priesthood of believers. The Good News is given to His sheep; not just to the cloistered mystics who vainly imagine themselves to be "another Christ."
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" -- 1 Timothy 2:5
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore." -- Hebrews 7:24-28"But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
The different factions (four I've been able to identify so far, all of whom believe in Salvation through faith in/of Jesus Christ, in one fashion or another with pluses and works, etc.) are posting past each other for the most part.
I wonder, have you folks stopped to ask yourselves privately whether a human can find Salvation in a Catholic Church headed by homosexual Priests?... Of course such a person can find Christ and Christ has promised that the 'metanoia' of the believer focused upon Jesus will result in God's Holy Spirit coming into the cleansed spirit of such an faither. Can a human being seeking God meet The Savior, even in a Protestant Church headed by a flawed money grubbing 'evangelical'? Of course that seeker can meet the Lord because God has promised that if one seeks The Christ, He will come into them.
What this thread appears to be bogged down in debate over are particulars of a relationship with the Living God as defined by factions of men, by opinions, by assertions, most of which have but tenuous basis in the teaching of Jesus or Paul (under the inspiration of God's Holy Spirit), the letters of instruction from various Apostles, and the traditions of men over the centuries. Is God the God only of Catholics? Of course not. Is God the God of Protestants and not of Catholics? Of course not!
For months, I've been debating with Mormonism Apologists. The fundamental flaw/heresy in their belief system relates to their practice of being baptized for the dead. The very doctrine of it implies that ALL those who professed belief in Christ and faithed in God's promises prior to the coming of Joseph Smith to 'restore' the Priesthood and Apostolic Authority to the race of men, thus proclaiming Catholicism and Protestantism as lost in apostasy. Think about what their belief implies for a moment: 1) they believe the promise of God that the Holy Spirit indwells the faither in Christ was somehow defeated for the period from the death of the last Apostle until the advent of Joseph Smith; 2) the authority to 'baptize with the Holy Spirit' is a power men can manipulate and thus lose for more than 1500 years, as if the impotence of God was discovered by Satan and ruled until Smith was 'used by God' to reestablish Apostolic Authority; 3) God's Spirit is somehow submissive to the dictates of men; 4) and finally, the hidden heresy, Salvation is a complexity that few 'religions' have understood and which was lost in fact from the death of the last APostle until the reestablishing of the priesthood with Joseph Smith, which contradicts Christ Himself in His teachings as simply exposed to Nicodemus and taught by Paul to the world through the inspiration and leadership of God's Holy Spirit!
Instead of arguing the vagaries of men's opinions, why not seek to find the means by which God has Saved faithers throughout the ages? Why not seek to discuss the actual meaning of Salvation and sanctification and faithe (the verb form, not the noun)?
This thread reminds me of what must have been echoing inside the Corinthian and Ephesian churches! 'I am of Apollos' or 'I am of Paul' or 'I am of Peter' or later through the centuries, 'I am of the Pope' or 'I am of Luther' or 'I am of Calvin' or 'I am of Welsey' ... brothers and sisters, WE ARE OF CHRIST or we are none of His. And finally, even in a Mormon church, salvation can happen in the heart of one seeking Christ, though the fruits brought forth by the Holy Spirit within may be sparse while the fruits of sweat of the brow are pouring forth.
No it isn't. Dig deeper and you will find that the God revealed to man in the Old testament and the New, is not the "god" that they believe in. They do not know what it means to have a personal relationship to Christ.
Secondly, we are not Instead of arguing the vagaries of men's opinions.
We are discussing the Word of God, that's the function of the religion forum, and it's our job
At one point, when the dipsy sister asks Joe if he's ever thought of killing himself.
JOE: What? Why would you do that? ANGELICA: Why shouldn't I? JOE: Some things take care of themselves. They're not your job. Maybe they're not even your business. I always liked those lines. ANGELICA: Did you ever think aboout killing yourself?
Faith ebbs and flows but God promises He will never leave us. It's hard to say if you were seeking or if you had simply fallen away for a time. God works in mysterious ways. But you would never be where you are now if God had not given you the faith you have today. You know it and I know it.
Fact is, if we don't believe faith comes from God why would we believe His word came from Him.
LOL! Well, that could be, but I'll bet there's still a Jumbotron on the side so everyone can still see. :)
God wishes all men to come to Him with their own free will.
And you are completely ignoring the analysis of the Lord’s Prayer.
I’ll repeat it here if you wish. If this is not asking the Lord things for ourselves and for the world, what is it?
4. Give us this day our daily bread This can be understood both eucharistically and for more literal hunger of ourselves and the entire world. This request for daily provision does not mean we shouldn’t work. St. Benedict said “Pray as if everything depended on God and work as if everything depended on you.”
5. And forgive us our trespasses The fact that the stipulation is added “as we forgive” is an astonishing limitation that God’s places on his forgiveness! “In refusing to forgive our brothers and sisters, our hearts are closed and their hardness makes them impervious to the Father’s merciful love” (2840). In other words, if we insist on the “right” to nurse a grudge towards someone, God may insist on his “right” to do the same to us! Ouch!
6. Lead us not into temptation With this we should keep in mind the distiction between trials which “are necessary for the grwoth of the inner man” and temptation “which leads to sin and death” (2847). The way to avoid yielding to temptation is through prayer and vigilance.
7. Deliver us from evil Keep in mind here our lesson from weeks past that Satan is real.
“In this petition, evil is not an abstraction, but refers to a person, Satan, the Evil One, the angel who opposes God. The devil (dia-bolos) is the one who “throws himself across” God’s plan and his work of salvation accomplished in Christ” (2851).
The Catechism also adds that “In this final petition, the Church brings before the Father all the distress of the world” (2854).
This is indeed about petitioning the Lord. And Jesus Himself told us to do it. How does your theology deal with it? Do you simply abridge your Bible a little more to leave out this little annoyance?
It is indeed a great story about courage in surrendering to God's will - and the futility of worry.
In the last scene (I forgot the exact words) but she says something to Joe like "it's always going to be something with you, isn't it?" LOLOL!
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