Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)

Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

[Forest Keeper]

The only ‘badness’ that I can see about the robot slave theory is that it goes against so much of Scripture.

I agree, and am glad that Reformers do not believe in such a thing. The robot slave theory, as argued, was wholly invented by our critics and thrust upon us against our free wills. :) We reject it. Our position is that God is sovereign and in full control of everything. Within that dynamic we experience the freedom to sin, and to do good in God's eyes once saved. These experiences are fully real.

However, this idea has somehow been translated into the aforementioned theory. I am not sure whether this is done in order to persuade lurkers, or whether it is an instinctual reaction to any thought of man not being in control of his own destiny. The natural state of all of us at birth is to want to be in full control. So, theology developed that promoted man being in (ultimate) control, including a small group of elite who were in "super control". That is, they granted themselves the power to stand in God's place and speak for Him with the force of law (Latin).

I at least partially understand the need that this fills for a huge number of Christians. On the one hand one can be a good Christian, and on the other he can remain in control and have eternal self determination. I just don't think that's what the Bible teaches. :)

[stfassisi]

I think you failed to grasp that I was being somewhat sarcastic .Also, If you fully understand Augustine or any of the other Saints for that matter, you would understand that it is the Church guided by the Holy Spirit that helped them GROW in faith.( I can easily pull up thousands of writings to back this up)

Dear Harley, Catholic’s do NOT deny that Faith is a gift.
We understand that FAITH is a gift given to those who are humble enough to freely accept it.

I’ll post this again for you....

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PX.HTM

The freedom of faith

160 To be human, “man’s response to God by faith must be free, and... therefore nobody is to be forced to embrace the faith against his will. the act of faith is of its very nature a free act.”39 “God calls men to serve him in spirit and in truth. Consequently they are bound to him in conscience, but not coerced. . . This fact received its fullest manifestation in Christ Jesus.”40 Indeed, Christ invited people to faith and conversion, but never coerced them. “For he bore witness to the truth but refused to use force to impose it on those who spoke against it. His kingdom... grows by the love with which Christ, lifted up on the cross, draws men to himself.

[HarleyD]

And what about the rabbis and their vowells? Do you just shrug your shoulder when reading the OT and say "sorry they failed?"

Why should I shrug my shoulders? I believe the word of God is alive today, infallible and inerrorant, and has been perserved for our use. I have no questions of anyone failing in their responsibility to preserve the text for I believe that God has preserved it.

OTOH, you have repeatedly made comments that this or that is wrong, the original manuscript doesn't exist so we don't know what it really said, we don't know who were the authors and people added all sorts of things. Have I've missed anything? Well what type of religion does that create when you have no guidelines except what someone has told you? Many people believed Jim Jones as they drank the punch. If you can't have faith that God preserved the scriptures, then how can you have faith in anything else?

[HarleyD]

Catholic’s do NOT deny that Faith is a gift. We understand that FAITH is a gift given to those who are humble enough to freely accept it.

Please observe what you have stated; faith is given to those who are humble. How can we humble ourselves when we don't even believe in the first place? I believe you miss the point of Augustine and Cyprian reasoning. You can't be given faith through humility. You must FIRST be given faith in order that you may become humbled. Since not all men have faith, then God does not give this faith to everyone. That was what Augustine rightfully reasoned.

[Alamo-Girl]

Excellent reply, dear sister in Christ! Thank you so much for sharing the full passage and for your insights.

[stfassisi]

Dear Brother,here are a few links from New Advent to help you understand faith from the Catholic viewpoint

Humility
http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/post?id=1870079%2C6304

Faith
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm

The Rule of Faith
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05766b.htm

[stfassisi]

OOPS, I gave you the wrong link .Here is the correct one

Humility

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07543b.htm

[kosta50]

Whatever good (fruit, works) comes from our lives after we have been reborn in Him, is His doing and to His glory, not ours

But the point is: everything we do is not good, even after we are born in the Spirit. You seem to suggest that those who have accepted Christ can do no wrong and, just because they cry out Jesus, Jesus, they will not be judged for their wrongdoings because the blood of Christ washed away their sins. The blood of Christ made it possible for all men to be saved by forgiving us our sins if we sin no more (cf John 8:11). Christians have not been given an open credit account to, as Luther says, "sin boldly" all you want. That is the heart of Protestant heresy based on distorted interpretation of Paul's Epistles, and not on what Christ said.

[Forest Keeper]

Thanks for your reply. I think it's very creative.

Thanks. ......... I think. :)

How do you read these similar verses:

Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Here is the basic context of the passage:

Matt 18:1-4 : 1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" 2 He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3 And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

While Jesus knew immediately that their question was idiotic, He apparently believed that it was honest, so He gave them a straightforward answer. Jesus said, in essence, that Godly humility (and by extension recognition of God's sovereignty and Lordship) will result in going to Heaven. We are to have a child-like faith. However, by implication, those who are not humble by submitting to God will not even make it to Heaven.

The child was a tool used by Jesus to make a point. We should not be thinking of our ambitions, but rather on being loyal and humble servants to Him.

Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

(Matt. 18:10) Again this can apply literally to believing children, or to all Christians generally who have child-like faith. We should treat each other well, as the angels who minister to us do (Heb. 1:14).

[kosta50]

Paul is saying retribution is God's domain and not ours

Now, Christians of all times have given only lip service to this idea, haven't they? In fact, those who advocate such a thing are often refrered to as Democrats!

And He most certainly will -- by "heaping holes of fire on their heads."

If they desrerve it in God's eyes! As it is suggested in various places in the Bible, God sees things differently then we do.

St. Paul is saying for us not to return evil for evil, asnd to let God decide if those who trespass agianst us need to have hot coals poured on their heads. But, of course, Paul is presenting an angry wrathful God of the Old Testament. The fire and brimstone God of the Protestant persuasion that is the root cause of European atheism, and elsewhere.

[kosta50]

How can we humble ourselves when we don't even believe in the first place?

That is the most arrogant statement I have heard so far! There are those who are poor in spirit who are not Christians.

[1000 silverlings]

Indeed, the Greek for "burning coals" is our English word anthrax, so might be whence comes our saying "a pox upon him",lol. At any rate I think the burning coals are meant to represent God's wrath.

[kosta50]

I have no questions of anyone failing in their responsibility to preserve the text for I believe that God has preserved it.

Don't let the facts pluck your head out of the sand. You can convince yourself that there is a unicorn on Neptune with equal ease.

The Bible is preserved not in the literal sense but in the spiritual sense; in its overall message of love. It teaches us that mercy is better than vengeance; that we should not return evil with evil. It teaches us to forgive if we expect forgiveness. That is the thread that stretches throughout the Gospels and that is what we are looking for in the rest of the Bible.

However, facts show that the bible has been corrupted by human hands, whether you want to believe it or not. Some parts of the Bible show that the Jews did not really receive full revelation that the law and prophets were to be understood as love.

But if you want to believe the earth is flat, oh well, that's fine too.

[fortheDeclaration]

Paul is saying retribution is God's domain and not ours. And because all things work for the good of those who love Him, God's retribution will make even more evident the depths of the sin of our persecutors by comparison.

Exactly!

The reason people misunderstand the verse is because they impose their own theology on it and ignore what the verse actually says.

Compare it to what James writes,

For he shall have judgement without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; (Ja.2:13)

If you want mercy, you had better show it, so by showing mercy to those who don't deserve it, we receive it, and they receive the fruit of their own cruel unforgiving acts.

Just as is depicted in the parable of the King who forgave the great debt, and the one forgiven would not forgive the little debt owed to him. (Mt.18:23-35)

[fortheDeclaration]

From Kosta,

The blood of Christ made it possible for all men to be saved by forgiving us our sins if we sin no more (cf John 8:11).

1Jn.1:8, If we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

[Alamo-Girl]

But the point is: everything we do is not good, even after we are born in the Spirit. You seem to suggest that those who have accepted Christ can do no wrong and, just because they cry out Jesus, Jesus, they will not be judged for their wrongdoings because the blood of Christ washed away their sins. The blood of Christ made it possible for all men to be saved by forgiving us our sins if we sin no more (cf John 8:11). Christians have not been given an open credit account to, as Luther says, "sin boldly" all you want. That is the heart of Protestant heresy based on distorted interpretation of Paul's Epistles, and not on what Christ said.

Oh, kosta, kosta, kosta – stop worrying and start living.

I wonder how much life has been lost to dark imaginings.

Truly, as long as we are anchored to the flesh we will sin. Our challenge after becoming reborn in Him is to follow Him, to stay in His Light. (Romans 8)

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. - I John 1:5-10

Truly, every good thing (fruit, works) that comes from our lives after we have been reborn in Him, is His doing and to His glory, not ours. That is why it will survive the test:

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. – I Cor 3:13-15

Only God is good. Only Him.

The things we do on our own accord will not survive – even though we will.

All of the above applies to God’s own adopted children, those who have been reborn by the Spirit. The others are destined to the second death (Revelation 20.)

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. – John 3:5-6

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:9

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. - Col 3:3

BTW, I eschew all of the doctrines and traditions of men – including Luther's. The whole idea of a reborn adopted child of God Almighty sinning ”boldly” is absurd on the face.

Quite to the contrary, we are deeply hurt in the Spirit when we offend our Father's will for us, and quickly repent - often on our bellies, our faces wet with salty tears. But Christ is faithful and just to forgive us and the Spirit guides us to receive His love, look up to Him and follow Him.

We do not live a life apart from the Spirit – we are truly dead and our lives are hid with Christ in God.

Praise God!!!

[fortheDeclaration]

Kosta statements, The Bible is preserved not in the literal sense but in the spiritual sense; in its overall message of love. It teaches us that mercy is better than vengeance; that we should not return evil with evil. It teaches us to forgive if we expect forgiveness. That is the thread that stretches throughout the Gospels and that is what we are looking for in the rest of the Bible.

And how do we know what the bible teaches about anything if we don't have the correct words?

No Bible, no knowledge of God-period.

However, facts show that the bible has been corrupted by human hands, whether you want to believe it or not.

I guess we are to believe it because some want to believe it.

If it is corrupted, then how do we know what parts to believe, like the Creation, Incarnation and Resurrection, are they true or are they part of the corrupt parts of the Bible and how do you know the difference?

Some parts of the Bible show that the Jews did not really receive full revelation that the law and prophets were to be understood as love.

Ofcourse they did, but like many on these threads, they did not take the words literally and started putting 'spiritual' meaning to them.

Christ rebuked those who met on the road to Emmaus for rejecting what the scriptures said (Lk.24:25).

Anything that is believed that is true by any major faith, including the Greek Orthodox has to ultimately be traced to the Bible and what it actually says, not its 'spiritual' meanings.

[Alamo-Girl]

Fascinating. Thank you for sharing your insights!

[Forest Keeper]

If the confession meant a different meaning for passions, it would seem the confession would spell out the difference. Particularly since its list in this part seems to echo the orthodox writings that do not have such a caveat.

I suppose I figure they did this implicitly, since otherwise there are direct contradictions within the same paragraph. I would think it was proofread first, etc. :)

With your modification, passions="weakness of passion" you still have the problem of violating immutability, unchanging.

I don't understand. The "without" doesn't apply to that. Granted, the sentence may not have the best structure in the world, but the meaning is clear enough I think. We believe that God is immutable and unchanging. But that does not mean God must be a static being. He can have the capacity to love and hate and still be unchanging. God can walk and chew gum and the same time etc. Immutable carries with it the idea of consistency. So, if one thing made God angry today, but the same thing did not tomorrow, then that would violate immutability. But God is always consistent.

I'm not sure also what distinction you make between "passion" and "weaknesses of passion that humans so often fall into". Are there passions with weakness and passions without?

Well, for example on the one hand there is a grounded, sobering love, and on the other is a self-destructive, obsessive "love". There is anger that causes rash and unwise, impulsive decisions, and there is righteous anger. I just meant that with all the emotions, God always correctly shows them. We humans misuse our emotions all the time. :)

[D-fendr]

We believe that God is immutable and unchanging. But that does not mean God must be a static being.

If your definition of static in this case includes unchanging, changeless, that's exactly what it means. I think you are confusing this with the immaterial energies of the Holy Trinity or Godhead.

He can have the capacity to love and hate and still be unchanging. God can walk and chew gum and the same time

God is changelessly experiencing the emotions of love and hate? This is internally inconsistent.

Immutable carries with it the idea of consistency.

It carries with it the idea of not changing!

So, if one thing made God angry today, but the same thing did not tomorrow, then that would violate immutability.

If God hates something today and loves something tomorrow it violates immutability, so you postulate an unchanging infinite immaterial ball of conflicting emotions. Turn the microscope around.

You seem to be stretching here, FK, think about it: You have God experiencing simultaneous unchanging opposing emotions. It's a demi-human God that fails the further you take it.

Well, for example on the one hand there is a grounded, sobering love, and on the other is a self-destructive, obsessive "love".

This isn't love or isn't a fault of loving. We confuse many things for love. God's love through us is not an emotion; but this is another topic...

There is anger that causes rash and unwise, impulsive decisions, and there is righteous anger.

"Anyone who is angry with his brother.."

I just meant that with all the emotions, God always correctly shows them.

Perfect anger, lust, pride, envy... :)

We humans misuse our emotions all the time.

We misuse our God-given instincts. Emotions are instinctual states. Applying animal instincts to God leads us to strange theology.

Thanks for your reply as always, FK...