Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
I guess you ought to know.
No.. faith is an act.. What you believe is what you believe..
Simply profound! (sarcasm)
I don't believe in miracles, I rely on them, daily
LOL! So you rely on things you don't believe in? LOL!
Amen, FK.
As the hymn says, "I once was lost but now am found."
It doesn't say "I once was lost but found my own way home."
MARKBSNR: He wants fully aware and fully competent creatures to willfully worship Him. Are you up to the task?
But Mark, that's not what Scripture tells us. What is our rebirth if not having our wills changed? Why does God give the Holy Spirit to teach and lead us if we are "fully aware and fully competent?" If that were true, we wouldn't need the Holy Spirit.
God gives the Holy Spirit to those He draws in order to insure every one of Christ's flock will follow Him. And Christ will lose none of them.
Who presumes to stand before God and say "I am fully aware and fully competent enough to insure my salvation?"
"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." -- Jeremiah 10:23
And yet you say it is the way of man, Mark. Whom are we to believe?
When it comes to others, everything defaults to faith. because there is no way forus to know with certainty what they feel or think and experience.
If you think something is green it idesn't mean I see the same thing when I see green. If I tell you that I am thristy, you have no objective way of knowing that I am telling the truth.
All you are telling me is that we are totally immersed in the world.
No it just you that are in the "Gnosis" of good and evil..
I have no sacraments..
Yes.. its called faith..
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Or dust mites.
I see beauty in thee, kosta.
Glad I got pinged there, D.
And He said to them, To you has been entrusted the mystery of the kingdom of God [that is, the secret counsels of God which are hidden from the ungodly]; but for those outside [of our circle] everything becomes a parable.... With many such parables [Jesus] spoke the Word to them, as they were able to hear and to comprehend and understand. He did not tell them anything without a parable; but privately to His disciples (those who were peculiarly His own) He explained everything [fully].Get alone with Jesus. Let Him whisper the secrets of the Kingdom to thee. Then go, tell, rejoice, praise, proclaim and see the power and provision of Almighty God at work in this desperate world!
~Mark 4:11; 33-34 (Amplified)
Not really... "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." [Gal 5:4]
No, no, no. :) The third and first clauses FOLLOW from the second. Paul is saying that IF you are seeking salvation from the Law, THEN you have fallen from grace and have been severed from Christ. Paul knew and TAUGHT very well that we CANNOT be saved by following the Law. Therefore, if one holds the false and impossible premise that it is possible to be saved by the Law, THEN, in this case, other IMPOSSIBLE things result, like losing one's salvation. Garbage in, garbage out. He is saying that if one thinks he can take care of everything by following the Law, then he doesn't need Christ for anything. You KNOW Paul never taught that! :) Of any author in the Bible, you know that Paul does not believe that one can lose his salvation.
FK: "God made His children, and He also made other humans [sic] who are not His children."
That's preposterous! We are all made in His image. If we are in His image then we are His children and he is our Father by default. The fact that some, maybe most, of them disown God all on our own, is a different story.
Where does this rule come from? I could build a mannequin that looked just like me and even put a computer program in to make it talk like me. But that wouldn't make it my child, whom I loved. In the Biblical sense, God is not everyone's Father by default. He plainly tells us that some are His children, and some are not:
John 1:12-13 : 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
Children born NOT of natural descent. Those are the children of God. Obviously, many never become His children. In fact, with the usual qualifiers, NONE of us is a child of God until we believe.
PS do you call yourself a Baptiser or Baptist? If Baptist, then I am Orthodox...I think Kolo was pulling your leg when he said "Orthodoxer"... :)
Well, I'm glad you said something because you're right if your guess was that that was the ONLY reason I have been using the term. (I figured I couldn't lose if Kolo used it. :) I'll use whatever terms anyone wants me to for them, and I just found sometimes that it sounded awkward to say "Orthodox", such as in: "He's (an?) Orthodox (ed?), and some of his friends are Orthodox (ers? [- I guess not] :). They go to (an?) Orthodox (ed?) Church, and there are many Orthodox (ed?) Churches in the area. Some of their friends are Catholics and Protestants, but they prefer to hang around (the?) (other?) Orthodox (ed?). " That kind of thing. I don't know how any of that works, so I'll be grateful to take and follow any advice. :)
Who that has been created since Adam is "innocent" in God's eyes? In addition, does God number all our days or are they determined by ourselves or random chance?
Ps 139:15-16 : 15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, 16 your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
Job 1:20-22 : 20 At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship 21 and said: "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; may the name of the Lord be praised." 22 In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.
Job knew who determined how long he would be on earth, and he was thankful to God for it.
Are all or any eye cells part of the germline? Because in my understanding only mutated cells that are part of the germline can pass on mutations:
Cells that are not in the germline are called somatic cells. For example, all cells of the mammalian liver are somatic. If there is a mutation or other genetic change in the germline, it can be passed to offspring, but for a change in a somatic cell it will not be.
From somatic cell:
A somatic cell is generally taken to mean any cell forming the body of an organism: the word "somatic" is derived from the Greek word sōma (σώμα), meaning "body". Somatic cells, by definition, are not germline cells. In mammals, germline cells are the spermatozoa and ova (also known as "gametes") which fuse during fertilization to produce a cell called a zygote, from which the entire mammalian embryo develops. Every other cell type in the mammalian body—apart from the sperm and ova, the cells from which they are made (gametocytes) and undifferentiated stem cells—is a somatic cell: internal organs, skin, bones, blood, and connective tissue are all made up of somatic cells.
So I stand by my original statement. A mutation in an eye cell CANNOT be passed along to offspring. A gene in a reproductive cell determines eye color, but the original mutation did not and could not have occurred in the eye in response to any type of external or internal process.
Yes, I IMMEDIATELY thought of FR at that part. :)
Bruce’s main purpose in life is to win a particular girl. To make her love him. So the plot is set along the lines of our discussion.
When I saw that the "God" character had taken a stance contrary to mine, I had to give it a fair and balanced analysis. And in my totally unbiased view (cough, cough), I decided that the movie really wasn't trying to push or favor any sort of theology at all. The writers picked what they thought would be a POPULAR stance for God to hold. If people cannot make others love them, then why would it be fair if God did? In the minds of most of the general movie-going public, that would make perfect sense.
I'm not lumping you in with them because I know that you think about such things on a MUCH deeper level than the general movie-going audience. :) I was just guessing as to why the writers might have set it up that way for plot purposes. I don't for a minute think that the writers were trying to tailor anything to Catholics. Hollywood types certainly don't when they glorify abortion, the homosexual agenda, and embryonic stem cell research, for examples.
And it explores your question of “why an omnipotent being would ever want to relinquish His control over anything.”
You'll have to help me with the ending, but it seems that the classic would be for Bruce to come to understand that he does not belong in control of anything of God's providence because that is God's job. I honestly can't remember, so I'll just have to hope that's how it turned out. :)
Forest Keeper: I am still totally dependent on Him for any level of awareness and competence that He wishes to share with me.
Dr. Eckleburg: But Mark, that's not what Scripture tells us. What is our rebirth if not having our wills changed? Why does God give the Holy Spirit to teach and lead us if we are "fully aware and fully competent?" If that were true, we wouldn't need the Holy Spirit.
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:5-9
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth. – John 4:23-24
In him was life; and the life was the light of men. – John 1:4
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. – John 3:36
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; - John 5:24-26
We blame the Israelites too because we are accountable for our sins. God was NOT the cause of their error in the sense that He injected specific sin into the hearts of some where that sin was not before. He doesn't have the sin to fill the hypodermic needle. However, He was still in full control and DID ordain their sin. To accomplish the ordination all He had to do was to leave them alone to their own devices, which He says He does several times in scripture, all the time knowing the results (e.g. Rom. 1:24, 26, 28.)
But that would mean that His will was to NOT be in control. It would mean that His will was that man would do whatever he wants, and God would accept any outcome. That would be a horrifying result to me. Talk about inmates running the asylum. :)
If we are controlled, we have no free will.
And if WE are in control, then God does not care, or does not love us as we love our own children.
If you care about your children, do you control their every moment?
YES! :) That is, for every moment that I have the power and their lives are on the line. For example, when they were toddlers and we were around a public pool, I never took my eyes off them for a moment, and told them whenever they did anything I didn't like. I made sure it was impossible for them to get into the water without my knowing it instantly. I was in full "control", but they did not fully understand it.
It is a fact that there are people who reject God.
I think most people do permanently, and all do initially.
Well, I'm not sure I want to strain the RM's patience any more with that sort on THIS thread, however, from time to time lawyer joke threads are started (or hijacked from other threads :) and I am sometimes/usually pinged. I'll give you a shout the next time it happens. :)
Indeed many that do not believe in "miracles" rely on them anyway because their very existence is a miracle.. The window of life is very tenuous on this planet.. A little farther or closer to the Sun life(as we know it) could not exist.. No (earthly)axis held in place because of the moon... life could not exisit.. Just a little different atmosphere life could not exist.. This solar system being in a different setting this planet would/could be at extreme risk.. The Sun a little bigger or smaller or the Sun made of different elements life could not exist.. And because of much more probably... things I don't even know about life could not exit..
Yes.. we all rely on miracles.. daily.. moment by moment..
LOVE in all its nuances is a miracle versus random chance..
Random chance is so robotic.. Robots do not and can not Love..
Unless love is simulated.. which is not LOVE at all...
Must be why some/many have a robotic God.. and simulated Love..
Love of God takes/requires faith.. and is itself a miracle..
And miracle upon miracle upon miracle to generate it(love)..
Its all quite wonderful.. and miraculous..
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