Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
What would you have the Church do?
These people were theologically and Scripturally wrong; they are wrong today. Should we shrug our spiritual shoulders and wave as the heretics and apostates merrily board the hellbound express?
What should the Church of Jesus Christ do when the arrogance and hubris and pride of mankind leads so many of them into Satanic embrace?
Given that the Reformed theology "empowers" the self-appointed "elect," that is ti s a man-made rleigion that appeals to human vanity and arrogancy, it is a real miracle that all of Christianity was not consumed by this evil, which is all about arrogated self-righteousness, power and lawyering, and none about love.
You might want to give to yourself a deeper understanding of the role and the responsibility of the Church.
I’ve been through the whole business of “may God strike me dead if I’m wrong and God hasn’t struck me dead yet so therefore I am of and with God and you had better agree with me because God is backing me.”
These folks were not, at least not the leaders, seeking greater understanding. They were seeking power. The quest for spiritual understanding was the excuse.
I wouldn’t expect you to rationalize it any other way. The numbers of slaughtered, however, speak for themselves.
Exactly.
Agreed, so what does it have to do with this conversation? I've never heard a Christian complain about God changing his heart.
If God changes our heart without our participation or desire, it is forced.
Yes, and the bad part is ...? If one believed that hell would be a preferable alternative in order to maintain his free will, then perhaps a curative action was indicated in the first place. :)
We don't go around snatching McDonald's burgers our of fat people's hands just because obesity is unhealthy, do we? Do we arrest smokers because their habits are disgusting?
Stay tuned for a Democrat administration coming soon to a theater near you. They certainly use the law, i.e. the tax code, to change behaviors they do not like. It's bad that they do it because they really do not have the moral authority to do so. God, OTOH, DOES have the moral authority to change people without them having asked first.
I should put up a topic here in which we ask people if they believe that they are of the elect; if they KNOW that they’re going to heaven.
Unfortunately, I suspect that the responses would be less than enthusiastic; formerly I had asked about things like frequency of prayer and actual physical worship amongst our Protestant brethren and to an individual, they all declined to contribute.
I suspect that the veneer of their worship is relatively thin, as is the rock of their faith. If they had something to gloat about, I suspect that the contributions would have been both frequent and voluminous.
I suspect that the enthusiasm for the benevolent tyrant philosophy of God is entirely coincidental with the idea that those who espouse it also believe that they are of the elect.
If there is no choice, then how can one sin?
Indeed.
And how many were slaughtered by those with new hope of power that came from a splintering of the Church?
If there was not a rebellion against the Church, how many would have been killed? As it is, how many Reformation-led people have waltzed with the Devil, to the everlasting damnation of their souls? The question might be: do you kill the body to save the soul.
Speaking as one of the elect, I’d suspect that you would indicate the negative since either the person has been chosen without merit to the Kingdom of God (complete with the little voices), or else you are condemned to Hell simply because you are a sinful and completely unworthy pustule on the backside of humanity.
That topic has been discussed endlessly on FR. And yes, to a one the reformers and most Protestants say they are certain of their salvation because the Bible tells us if we have faith in Jesus Christ, we are among His children.
I'm afraid the RCC is the odd man out here.
Iniquities prevail against me: as for our transgressions, thou shalt purge them away. Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple. By terrible things in righteousness wilt thou answer us, O God of our salvation; who art the confidence of all the ends of the earth, and of them that are afar off upon the sea: Which by his strength setteth fast the mountains; being girded with power: Which stilleth the noise of the seas, the noise of their waves, and the tumult of the people." -- Psalm 65:2-7
"According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." -- Ephesians 3:-21"O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come.
God elects whom He will. Men have been railing against that fact since Adam. Their protests don’t change the truth that some men seek to make life more precarious and needlessly fearful so that other men will fall to their knees before them and the idols of their own making.
Ah, the old Catholic Church, the curmudgeon, the fastidious, the cranky, the true.
All of the Reformers cannot by example go to heaven because there are woeful sinners amongst them.
We have had many devout Protestant serial killers; do they go to Heaven? The Catholic Church may be odd man out, but that only goes to illustrate that the Reformation was wrong, is dangerous spiritually, and has claimed more souls for satan than any other enterprise since time began.
There is some wisdom in that.. I don't like appearing to assume either anti catholic(orthodox) or anti protestant positions... When I pretty much see them as co conspirators..
I hate to admit it but they are both(all) needed.. to expose mankinds lack of spiritual reality..
I like things neat and simple.. and they are simply not simple..
But under the philosophy of predestination, I will go to Heaven if He wants me to; I will go to hell if He wants me to and there’s nothing that you or I can do about it.
God is who He says He is in Scripture -- "I AM."
"I create the fruit of the lips" -- Isaiah 57:19
If there is no choice, then how can one sin?
"Whatsoever is not of faith is sin" (Romans 14:23).
And faith, like all good things, is a gift from God.
I sympathize with you entirely --- but I still don't think it is morally appropriate for the Church of Jesus Christ to launch a bloody crusade against the Vatican to put an end to this heresy and apostasy :)
Ultimately that is correct. But anyone who is predestined to have faith in Jesus Christ will believe and be saved.
No one will be in heaven who does not believe in Jesus Christ and has not been sanctified by the Holy Spirit. Reprobates are not in heaven. The redeemed are in heaven because Christ purchased them with His life and permitted them to be acquitted of their sins.
"For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." -- 1 Corinthians 6:20.
You're seeing life as linear. Look at the bigger picture. At the end of our life we will each either go to heaven or hell. If we end up in hell, it is because God's justice requires retribution for each man's sins. If we end up in heaven, it is because God chose to apply Christ's righteousness to our sins and allow us to be presented to God as blameless, clothed in His blood.
From the moment of creation, God ordained what would eventually happen to every person ever born. He knew to whom He would give faith and He knew to whom He would withhold faith. And those who are not given faith do not want faith.
No one is denied faith when they desire it. We are told to ask for anything we want and Christ will provide it ("Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us" - Ephesians 3:20).
But the point of God's sovereignty is that anyone who desires Christ does so because God first opened their eyes and ears and first gave them a new heart with which to know the truth and be saved.
That's how amazing God's love is -- that He loved us before we loved Him; before we could earn His love...
"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" -- Romans 9:11
LOL. Yep.
"Man's mind is like a store of idolatry and superstition; so much so that if a man believes his own mind it is certain that he will forsake God and forge some idol in his own brain." -- John Calvin
LOL. Well, you're half-right. What drives us is spiritual, but it represents the best of health. We know whom we have believed.
"I create the fruit of the lips" -- Isaiah 57:19
All glory to God.
LOL. Spoken like a true relativist.
It sure as heck matters to the other 14,999,950, dontcha think?
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