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Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)
Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins

Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years?

Wednesday, 11 July 2007

Yesterday's Reuters headline: "The Vatican on Tuesday said Christian denominations outside the Roman Catholic Church were not full churches of Jesus Christ." The actual proclamation, posted on the official Vatican Web site, says that Protestant Churches are really "ecclesial communities" rather than Churches, because they lack apostolic succession, and therefore they "have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery." Furthermore, not even the Eastern Orthodox Churches are real Churches, even though they were explicitly referred to as such in the Vatican document Unitatis Redintegratio (Decree on Ecumenism). The new document explains that they were only called Churches because "the Council wanted to adopt the traditional use of the term." This new clarification, issued officially by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, but in fact strongly supported by Pope Benedict XVI, manages to insult both Protestants and the Orthodox, and it may set ecumenism back a hundred years.

The new document, officially entitled "Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church," claims that the positions it takes do not reverse the intent of various Vatican II documents, especially Unitatis Redintegratio, but merely clarify them. In support of this contention, it cites other documents, all issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith: Mysterium Ecclesiae (1973), Communionis notio (1992), and Dominus Iesus (2000). The last two of these documents were issued while the current pope, as Cardinal Ratzinger, was prefect of the Congregation. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith was born in 1542 with the name Sacred Congregation of the Universal Inquisition, and for centuries it has operated as an extremely conservative force with the Roman Catholic Church, opposing innovation and modernizing tendencies, suppressing dissent, and sometimes, in its first few centuries, persecuting those who believed differently. More recently, the congregation has engaged in the suppression of some of Catholicism's most innovative and committed thinkers, such as Yves Congar, Hans Küng, Charles Curran, Matthew Fox, and Jon Sobrino and other liberation theologians. In light of the history of the Congregation of the Faith, such conservative statements as those released this week are hardly surprising, though they are quite unwelcome.

It is natural for members of various Christian Churches to believe that the institutions to which they belong are the best representatives of Christ's body on earth--otherwise, why wouldn't they join a different Church? It is disingenuous, however, for the leader of a Church that has committed itself "irrevocably" (to use Pope John Paul II's word in Ut Unum Sint [That They May Be One] 3, emphasis original) to ecumenism to claim to be interested in unity while at the same time declaring that all other Christians belong to Churches that are in some way deficient. How different was the attitude of Benedict's predecessors, who wrote, "In subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the [Roman] Catholic Church--for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame" (Unitatis Redintegratio 3). In Benedict's view, at various times in history groups of Christians wandered from the original, pure Roman Catholic Church, and any notion of Christian unity today is predicated on the idea of those groups abandoning their errors and returning to the Roman Catholic fold. The pope's problem seems to be that he is a theologian rather than a historian. Otherwise he could not possibly make such outrageous statements and think that they were compatible with the spirit of ecumenism that his immediate predecessors promoted.

One of the pope's most strident arguments against the validity of other Churches is that they can't trace their bishops' lineages back to the original apostles, as the bishops in the Roman Catholic Church can. There are three problems with this idea.

First, many Protestants deny the importance of apostolic succession as a guarantor of legitimacy. They would argue that faithfulness to the Bible and/or the teachings of Christ is a better measure of authentic Christian faith than the ability to trace one's spiritual ancestry through an ecclesiastical bureaucracy. A peripheral knowledge of the lives of some of the medieval and early modern popes (e.g., Stephen VI, Sergius III, Innocent VIII, Alexander VI) is enough to call the insistence on apostolic succession into serious question. Moreover, the Avignon Papacy and the divided lines of papal claimants in subsequent decades calls into serious question the legitimacy of the whole approach. Perhaps the strongest argument against the necessity of apostolic succession comes from the Apostle Paul, who was an acknowledged apostle despite not having been ordained by one of Jesus' original twelve disciples. In fact, Paul makes much of the fact that his authority came directly from Jesus Christ rather than from one of the apostles (Gal 1:11-12). Apostolic succession was a useful tool for combating incipient heresy and establishing the antiquity of the churches in particular locales, but merely stating that apostolic succession is a necessary prerequisite for being a true church does not make it so.

The second problem with the new document's insistence upon apostolic succession is the fact that at least three other Christian communions have apostolic succession claims that are as valid as that of the Roman Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox Churches, which split from the Roman Catholic Church in 1054, can trace their lineages back to the same apostles that the Roman Catholic Church can, a fact acknowledged by Unitatis Redintegratio 14. The Oriental Orthodox Churches, such as the Coptic and Ethiopic Orthodox Churches, split from the Roman Catholic Church several centuries earlier, but they too can trace their episcopal lineages back to the same apostles claimed by the Roman Catholic Church as its founders. Finally, the Anglican Church, which broke away from the Roman Catholic Church during the reign of King Henry VIII, can likewise trace the lineage of every bishop back through the first archbishop of Canterbury, Augustine. In addition to these three collections of Christian Churches, the Old Catholics and some Methodists also see value in the idea of apostolic succession, and they can trace their episcopal lineages just as far back as Catholic bishops can.

The third problem with the idea of apostolic succession is that the earliest bishops in certain places are simply unknown, and the lists produced in the third and fourth centuries that purported to identify every bishop back to the founding of the church in a particular area were often historically unreliable. Who was the founding bishop of Byzantium? Who brought the gospel to Alexandria? To Edessa? To Antioch? There are lists that give names (e.g., http://www.friesian.com/popes.htm), such as the Apostles Mark (Alexandria), Andrew (Byzantium), and Thaddeus (Armenia), but the association of the apostles with the founding of these churches is legendary, not historical. The most obvious breakdown of historicity in the realm of apostolic succession involves none other than the see occupied by the pope, the bishop of Rome. It is certain that Peter did make his way to Rome before the time of Nero, where he perished, apparently in the Neronian persecution following the Great Fire of Rome, but it is equally certain that the church in Rome predates Peter, as it also predates Paul's arrival there (Paul also apparently died during the Neronian persecution). The Roman Catholic Church may legitimately claim a close association with both Peter and Paul, but it may not legitimately claim that either was the founder of the church there. The fact of the matter is that the gospel reached Rome, Alexandria, Antioch, Edessa, and other early centers of Christianity in the hands of unknown, faithful Christians, not apostles, and the legitimacy of the churches established there did not suffer in the least because of it.

All the talk in the new document about apostolic succession is merely a smokescreen, however, for the main point that the Congregation of the Faith and the pope wanted to drive home: recognition of the absolute primacy of the pope. After playing with the words "subsists in" (Lumen Gentium [Dogmatic Constitution on the Church] 8) and "church" (Unitatis Redintegratio 14) in an effort to make them mean something other than what they originally meant, the document gets down to the nitty-gritty. "Since communion with the Catholic Church, the visible head of which is the Bishop of Rome and the Successor of Peter, is not some external complement to a particular Church but rather one of its internal constitutive principles, these venerable Christian communities lack something in their condition as particular churches." From an ecumenical standpoint, this position is a non-starter. Communion with Rome and acknowledging the authority of the pope as bishop of Rome is a far different matter from recognizing the pope as the "visible head" of the entire church, without peer. The pope is an intelligent man, and he knows that discussions with other Churches will make no progress on the basis of this prerequisite, so the only conclusion that can be drawn is that the pope, despite his protestations, has no interest in pursuing ecumenism. Trying to persuade other Christians to become Roman Catholics, which is evidently the pope's approach to other Churches, is not ecumenism, it's proselytism.

Fortunately, this document does not represent the viewpoint of all Catholics, either laypeople or scholars. Many ordinary Catholics would scoff at the idea that other denominations were not legitimate Churches, which just happen to have different ideas about certain topics and different ways of expressing a common Christianity. Similarly, many Catholic scholars are doing impressive work in areas such as theology, history, biblical study, and ethics, work that interacts with ideas produced by non-Catholic scholars. In the classroom and in publications, Catholics and non-Catholics learn from each other, challenge one another, and, perhaps most importantly, respect one another.

How does one define the Church? Christians have many different understandings of the term, and Catholics are divided among themselves, as are non-Catholics. The ecumenical movement is engaged in addressing this issue in thoughtful, meaningful, and respectful ways. Will the narrow-minded view expressed in "Responses" be the death-knell of the ecumenical movement? Hardly. Unity among Christians is too important an idea to be set aside. Will the document set back ecumenical efforts? Perhaps, but Christians committed to Christian unity--Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant alike--will get beyond it. The ecumenical movement is alive and well, and no intemperate pronouncement from the Congregation of the Faith, or the current pope, can restrain it for long. Even if ecumenism, at least as it involves the Roman Catholic Church's connection with other Churches, is temporarily set back a hundred years, that distance can be closed either by changes of heart or changes of leadership.


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: apostolic; catholic; fascinatedwcatholics; givemerome; obsessionwithrome; papistsrule; pope; protestant; solascriptura
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To: MarkBsnr
What is an icon?

I'm reminded, from time to time, that I have unused ones on my desktop.

4,001 posted on 08/24/2007 5:35:17 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
The thief on the cross was saved exactly the same way you and I are saved -- by receiving faith in Jesus Christ.

That's the way I read it!


John 6:28-29

28. Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29. Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

4,002 posted on 08/24/2007 5:36:34 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: P-Marlowe; kosta50
Maybe you aren't "Elect".

Ah, but by Calvin's philosophy, the "elect" are the ones chosen by God to be saved. That limited club was filled in the first few centuries by the martyrs. So, now all of us, including P-Marlowe, Kosta and Cronos are not part of the "elect", but are part of the "to-be-roasted"
4,003 posted on 08/24/2007 5:37:31 AM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
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To: kosta50
That's because the Church both east and West relied on patristic teachings of the earliest fathers, always reverting back to the mindset of the earliest Church, rather than venture into private and individual interpretations of the Bible.

To add in a bit more -- most of our individual thoughts and questions have been thought or by the earliest church fathers, so it isn't just a question of reading what the earlier guys did.
4,004 posted on 08/24/2007 5:39:34 AM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
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To: RightWhale
The name Plato means something. Might be interesting.

Plato does not "reduce" to his name.

4,005 posted on 08/24/2007 5:55:36 AM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein)
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To: kosta50
If so, it's by my election, not His.

Oh my.

Do you really mean that?

4,006 posted on 08/24/2007 6:41:09 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Cronos
the "elect" are the ones chosen by God to be saved

Do you have a problem with God making the choice as to who will be saved and under what circumstances He will make that choice?

Are you any better a person than the poor slob who will eventually end up in Hell?

4,007 posted on 08/24/2007 6:44:36 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Elsie
That's the way I read it!

Some of our friends here seem to think that the post-crucifixion method of salvation is to join the Roman Catholic church and go through all the rituals and mouth a litany of reptetitve prayers about Mary. The poor thief on the cross didn't get last rites, so Jesus had to give him some kind of special dispensation not available to the rest of the tithe paying masses.

4,008 posted on 08/24/2007 6:51:41 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe
Oh my. Do you really mean that?

Yes, of course. I feel under no pressure to choose one over the other. I am sure God knows my choices, but He doesn't make them for me. Nor did He secretly implant them in my head. He allows us freedom because we are made in His image, so that we may regain His likleness by choosing to imitate Christ.

Only those who are truly alive in Christ know that God gives us a choice which master we shall serve. Those who are dead, well, they need to be pushed, and once they are pushed they will stay right where they were left off. They have no will of their own, nor can they use it.

"Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall" [2 Pet 1:10]

Election, means choice. The phrase "your election" can be taken in two ways: either you are chosen or you choose. It is clear from the context of 2 Peter 1 that what he means by "doing" things to assure our election is obviously something we do by our choice.

4,009 posted on 08/24/2007 7:15:23 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50

Well, I guess you are your savior. Keep up the good work.


4,010 posted on 08/24/2007 7:16:54 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Cronos; hosepipe; kosta50; betty boop; Dr. Eckleburg; P-Marlowe; .30Carbine; Quix; xzins
Yes, one version that is the truth and is verifiable, and the other (which you are spouting) that tells us that Christ spoke English

LOLOL!

On the one hand, I am quite sure that while God was enfleshed, He spoke to mortals in earthy languages the hearers could comprehend - but on the other hand, I am quite sure there is no past, present or future earthy language hidden from Him, including English - or nuance of meaning He did not already know when He spoke the words.

But regardless of the language by which His words are conveyed - or the medium - His words are spirit and life. But only those with "ears to hear" (a gift of the Father) can hear Him.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. - John 6:63

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. - John 6:65

In the following, the people to whom Christ is speaking were physically hearing Him (pressure waves, sound) - but they could not spiritually hear Him.

Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. - John 8:43

And that spiritual language is how we Christians speak to one another. The earthy language we happen to use is moot. Emphasis mine:

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. II Cor 2:6-16

To God be the glory!

4,011 posted on 08/24/2007 7:21:57 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: D-fendr
[.. It might be good to balance your reading with a critical analysis of Foxe’s methods and motivation including his veracity and evidence. ..]

I admit John Foxe could possible wrong about and on some things.. and yet generally accurate about most things.. Since a good church history supports him from other angles..

4,012 posted on 08/24/2007 7:31:29 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: hosepipe; Alamo-Girl
Thanks.. I got myself into a centuries old war of words.. maybe some lurker will get some good out of it.. There are two versions history no doubt about it..

Some arguments never go away. Every time a position is put forth that is clearly wrong it needs to be rebutted. I enjoyed your posts and I enjoy your witness.

4,013 posted on 08/24/2007 7:34:32 AM PDT by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
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To: P-Marlowe
Do you have a problem with God making the choice as to who will be saved and under what circumstances He will make that choice?

Nope, as you say, God's chosen some people to go to hell, and these were chosen from before time itself to burn, so no matter what they do, they'll go to hell

Are you any better a person than the poor slob who will eventually end up in Hell?

No -- and that person is all of us born after the 3rd century, as you said, only the "elect" will go to heaven, the rest to hell. The "elect" are only the 144000 martyrs from the first couple of centuries, everone else including you and me goes to heck.
4,014 posted on 08/24/2007 7:36:10 AM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
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To: Alamo-Girl

Right — so you say the Bible was originally written in English and that Christ preached to the Jews in English


4,015 posted on 08/24/2007 7:37:44 AM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
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To: hosepipe
I admit John Foxe could possible wrong about and on some things.. and yet generally accurate about most things.. Since a good church history supports him from other angles..

OK, so Foxe is supported by Church writings and tradition and is generally right, you say?
4,016 posted on 08/24/2007 7:39:32 AM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
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To: Cronos
[.. Paul was a CATHOLIC —> ALL Christians in the early years were part of the global, catholic Church. ..]

I didn't say he was not.. I said he was NOT a ROMAN catholic.. Paul and all the Apostles were NOT Roman catholics.. or Eastern Orthodox either.. They WERE JEWS... The only rites and ceremonys they observed (if any) were Jewish.. i.e. Galatians..

4,017 posted on 08/24/2007 7:40:11 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: wmfights; hosepipe
I too enjoy hosepipe's insights and testimony! And yours also, dear wmfights!
4,018 posted on 08/24/2007 7:50:49 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Cronos
[.. Hosepipe --> you've been indoctrinated to being anti-catholic, so much so that you can't see that Kosta is ORTHODOX, not LAtin Catholic. ..]

You are WRONG.. I am well aware of that.. There is really little difference between RC and EO(of various denominations).. and also little difference between them and several so-called protestant denominations either.. I'll call them roman catholic-like denominations.. including Lutheran.. to some extent.. All the indoctrination is on your part, I suspect..

I am not to very tolerant of denomination christianity.. including Roman catholic, EO(of various kinds) and protestant denominations either.. Its not just RC that I eschew but EO and all the splinter groups too..

The "church" can only be divided by location.. because you cannot be in two places at the same time.. Denominations are not churches but CLUBS.. Elite CLUBS.. You can be a christian and NOT BE a member of any of them..

4,019 posted on 08/24/2007 7:58:22 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: Cronos; hosepipe; kosta50; betty boop; Dr. Eckleburg; P-Marlowe; .30Carbine; Quix; xzins
Right — so you say the Bible was originally written in English and that Christ preached to the Jews in English

LOLOLOL! How on earth you got that from my post, I'll never know.

God chose Hebrew for the Torah.

And I see no coincidence in Alexander the Great - educated by the Greek philosophers and prophesied by Daniel - normalizing the Greek language (and therefore word-concepts) throughout civilization ahead of Christ's being enfleshed and His Gospel being spread.

Nor do I see any coincidence in Latin and Koine Greek becoming dead languages.

Nor do I see any coincidence in Hebrew being revived as a language.

Nevertheless, if God wanted a different set of earthy languages to be used when He conveyed His own spiritual words He certainly had the power to make it so. (tower of Babel)

To God be the glory!

4,020 posted on 08/24/2007 8:00:38 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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