Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)

Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

[OLD REGGIE]

Ducking? The term is self-descriptive and the basic concept well known by I believe pretty much any poster on this thread. If you want to pursue its various forms and variations, try Google.

Yes, ducking. Choose one definition and attack that one. Otherwise admit you are playing games.

I'm having trouble with my Google. I need help . Google

[D-fendr]

Well, I better be careful here, I can tell..

Oppose all Once Saved Always Saved... hmm...

Do I mean by “oppose” disapprove of or attempt to prevent, or actively resist or refuse to comply with or disagree with...

And by “all” do I mean all past uses of the term or can it include present and future uses..? Or should I confine it to the “P” in Tulip or should it include other denominations use of the term “Eternal Security” or..

And by “all” do this mean all theological uses only - or if a bank adverstises “Once Saved Always Saved” would I oppose that (depending on what ‘oppose’ means here), and what’s the interest rate?

And whether I’m “ducking” do you mean lowering my head or body quickly to avoid a blow or moving out of view so as not to be seen, or...

I’m gonna have to ponder all these things to get back to you in a more precise manner as requested.

[MarkBsnr]

Let us examine this passage more closely:

:::his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness:::

Servant of one versus the other. No quantitative difference in the quality of the service. No support there.

:::ye were the servants of sin:::

Servants, not slaves.

:::ye became the servants of righteousness:::

Servants, not slaves.

:::for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness:::

Servant of one versus the other. No quantitative difference in the quality of the service. No support there.

:::ye were the servants of sin:::

Servants, not slaves.

:::But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God:::

Servants, not slaves.

Harley, the verses quoted lend no support to the supposition that man has no free will before the Holy Spirit invades him, since the words and the phrasing is EXACTLY the same for servant to God versus servant to sin.

They however, indicate that the ability of man to choose (servant = free will, slave = forced) is equal in either choosing evil or God. I’m afraid that these verses support the Catholic position on free will and repudiate the Reformed position.

I don’t see this as accidental, friend. I think that you’re testing the waters for current, temperature etc. :)

[OLD REGGIE]

Inanity?

Martin Luther said that “Even the devil is God’s devil.”

Shall I look up Zwingli next to see what his beliefs were?

Sure if you wish. Look up all 33,000 Protestant, more or less, Denominations (a common Catholic claim), show their unanimous teaching concerning the Devil and then you can make a valid claim. Till then you are simply mudslinging.

In the meanwhile you can tell me who created the Devil.

[OLD REGGIE]

I’m gonna have to ponder all these things to get back to you in a more precise manner as requested.

You opened the can of worms. Skate and dance or admit it was hyperbole. Simple isn't it?

Catholics worship Mary! Well, some do so I can make that claim freely can't I?

[MarkBsnr]

All right, you have a point.

Since each denomination or individual is or has their own pope, and given the extreme variation in beliefs on any one subject, then I would agree that that is a general statement that does not necessarily apply to each and every individual Protestant (what did you say that your belief was? I think I missed it).

If the vast majority of Protestants believed it as a matter of their own dectrine, would you consider it an admissible statement though? If the Reformers believed it, then many of their splinter groups would have retained that belief.

[MarkBsnr]

Who created satan?

Well, God created all the angels, and Lucifer was an angel. God created Lucifer.

Lucifer made himself into satan.

[MarkBsnr]

The answer was not made in charitable fashion, but I appreciate the sentiment.

It is what the Catholic faith teaches. Neither I nor any man can know who gets everlasting damnation until the Judge levies His Judgement. The ones who claim to know that are, in our belief, wrong.

I may look askance at some of your posts, but I don’t get to make the rules; the good Book says that man will judge angels, but I don’t see where men will judge men.

But the Bible doesn’t say that we cannot engage in exuberant discourse on FR.

[OLD REGGIE]

Since each denomination or individual is or has their own pope..."

Wrong! Pope is an invented office and no Protestant has a Pope.

If the vast majority of Protestants believed it as a matter of their own dectrine, would you consider it an admissible statement though?

You have no idea, nor probably do "Protestants" what the Protestant belief concerning the relationship between God and Satan really is. Your question is meaningless.

(what did you say that your belief was? I think I missed it).

You didn't miss it. I didn't say. Did God create Satan? (I must have missed your answer.)

[MarkBsnr]

Check post 10,867 for my answer.

[MarkBsnr]

:::Wrong! Pope is an invented office and no Protestant has a Pope.:::

What was James I for the Anglicans? Martin Luther, John Calvin and Zwingli?

How about John Smyth? John Smith? Mary Baker Eddy?

:::You have no idea, nor probably do “Protestants” what the Protestant belief concerning the relationship between God and Satan really is. Your question is meaningless.:::

Strictly speaking, all one has to do with doctrinal Protestants is to look at their doctrines, and do some counting. The non doctrinal Protestants, well, you do have a point.

[HarleyD]

Servants, not slaves.

The Greek word used here (in various tenses) is doulos and means a slave: - bond-servant (11), bond-servants (12), bondslave (3), bondslaves (8), both men and women (8), servants (1), slave (58), slave’s (1), slaves . It means far more than simply a paid servant. It means being in bondage to someone or something. Hence Bondage of the Will by Martin Luther.

Harley, the verses quoted lend no support to the supposition that man has no free will before the Holy Spirit invades him,

Of course they do. The whole book of Romans is about the inability of man to come to God. This is one of the sections that you asked for. You try to make this to be simply a hired servant type of thing. That isn't what the Greek states at all.

I’m afraid that these verses support the Catholic position on free will and repudiate the Reformed position. I don’t see this as accidental, friend. I think that you’re testing the waters for current, temperature etc. :)

You don't know me very well then. I don't test the waters, certainly not with the Reformed position. There are far easier things to support.

All things come from God, including our faith. As St. Cyprian stated, "There is not anything you have that has not been given to you." including your faith. This is what most people wish to deny these days thinking they can ascend to the heavens by their choice. That didn't work long ago and it still doesn't work.

[OLD REGGIE]

Well, God created all the angels, and Lucifer was an angel. God created Lucifer.

Lucifer made himself into satan.

Well, then God made Satan. You do remember the Baltimore Catechism don't you?
Who made me?

[OLD REGGIE]

What was James I for the Anglicans? Martin Luther, John Calvin and Zwingli?

How about John Smyth? John Smith? Mary Baker Eddy?

Certainly not Pope.

[irishtenor]

No, because that is what the Bible says.

[Kolokotronis]

I don't think you're going to get too far with your argument based on slave/servant, M. The relevant word here is "δούλους". It is sometimes translated as servant because in English that's probably the closest single word but in fact a "δούλους" was very much a slave, a house slave, a member of the master's household to be sure, but a slave nevertheless.

[irishtenor]

***Do you think believe in this theology because you believe that you are going to heaven and therefore going to hell is not an option for you?***

If I believe that I am saved by the blood of the Lamb, and Christ says that not one of his own will be lost, that he has come to save all that his Father in heaven has given him, and if I believe that Jesus paid the price for all my sins, why would I think that I am going somewhere other than heaven?

[irishtenor]

***Interesting theology.***

Glad you think so. Interested in signing up? :>)

[stfassisi]

“”And Augustine would want you to rely on Scripture. (I can cut & paste also).””

He never says Scripture alone or Tradition alone.Blessed Augustine relied on Scripture,Sacred Tradition and the Magesterium of the Catholic Church, Just like we Catholics do today.

Go back and read post 10,817 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1870079/posts?page=10817#10817

Look at the full picture. All of it, and not part of it.

I wish you a Blessed Evening

[Forest Keeper]

I do distinguish between "word" and "Word".

Trick question: Which of these would you say is identical with the Scriptures?

Alright, I don't see it, but I'll try to answer anyway. :) I would say that "word" can reasonably refer to a few things. One would be the scriptures, God's Holy word. Another would be every word God ever spoke, many of which are not recorded in scriptures. Another could refer to the power of God's word, such as in:

Matt 8:16-17 : 16 When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. 17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: "He took up our infirmities and carried our diseases."

Now, "Word" OTOH, I think refers exclusively to the person of Jesus Christ.