Posted on 07/05/2007 3:00:33 AM PDT by Gamecock
"... they will be like the angels in heaven."
I do wish they we could get this straight!!!
Genesis 3:5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
That's unfortunate. I wouldn't be proud of it repeating it in either context. I assumed you were referencing this since it was a thread about Mormons.
The Haun's Mill Massacre - Wiki
On October 29, this large vigilante band of some 250 men assembled and illegally entered eastern Caldwell County. Built along Shoal Creek, Haun's Mill was one of the earliest Mormon settlements in Caldwell County and it was a way station on the route from the east to Far West. When the Missourian raiders approached the settlement on the afternoon of October 30, some 30 to 40 Latter-day Saint families were living or encamped there. The mob opened fire in a surprise attack, which sent the Latter-day Saints fleeing in all directions. While Mormon women and children scattered and hid in the surrounding woods and nearby homes, Mormon men and boys rallied to defend the settlement. They moved into a blacksmith shop which they hoped to use as a make-shift defensive fortification. Unfortunately, the shop had large gaps between the logs which the Missourians shot into and, as one Mormon later recalled, it became more "slaughter-house rather than a shelter" (Lee, p. 80). The mob gave no quarter. After most of the defenders in the black smith shop had been killed or mortally wounded, some of the Missourians entered to finish the work. Finding 10-year-old Sardius Smith hiding behind the bellows, William Reynolds of Livingston County shot and killed the boy, saying: "Nits will make lice, and if he had lived he would have become a Mormon" (LeSueur, p. 167).
In all, 18 Latter-day Saints were killed in what came to be called the Haun's Mill Massacre. Most of the remainder made their way as best they could to Far West, where news of the massacre created feelings of grave anxiety.
Wiki actually describes it mildly. His 8 year old brother testified in a court affadavit seeing his brother's brains bllown out all over the wall.
There is a difference between a crossfire and murder.
Good then you should take their word for it on their decent relationships with the Mormons. The Lakota generally got along well with Mormons who were the first Anglo group to settle in the Dakotas at the French Ft. Vermillion in 1845. Ponca also got along with the Mormons and saved the lives of hundreds of Mormons who were forced out of their homes in winter.
In the spring of 1847, the Ponca company was called back to Winter Quarters to be with the main body of the Church but most did survive the hard winter – thanks to the aid of the Ponca Indians. The majority of these went on to Utah with the group led by Brigham Young. Many became leaders in the Mormon settlements in the West.
In 2003, there was an award instigated by officials of the Sioux Falls, South Dakota Stake which was approved by Church headquarters in Salt Lake City, Utah to belatedly honor the Ponca Indians for rescuing this group of Mormon pioneers in the midst of their difficulties. Members of the sister Stake of Sioux City, Iowa, within whose boundaries the Ponca reservation actually resides, were also invited to attend the event.
The LDS dignitaries presenting the award traveled to the Ponca Pow Wow at their headquarters on the Niobrara to present the commemorative plaque. The tribe was credited with saving the lives of 400 Mormons during the winter of 1846-1847.
Thre words....
Mountain Meadows Massacre
If I may interject, the specific issue is defining what is and what is not a “Christian.” All your arguments re divine ontology, cosmological weltanshauung, revelatory continuity, and so forth are besides the point. The issue is “what is and what is not a Christian.”
What standard is then appropriate? Naturally the Bible but it does NOT create the criteria. IOW, it does not say a person must believe X, Y, Z in order to be a Christian. John’s shibboleth (http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/bicycleroad/21/id62.htm #23 & 24) was aimed at the protognostics (and is utterly devastating to the Baha’i religions btw since it is impossible for Baha’ullah’s claim to comply with John’s condition - see endnote 16 in http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/bicycleroad/21/id62.htm ) but sadly the rest of the NT canon lacks similar demarcations re what is and what isn’t a Christian.
What then must an honest person do? Naturally, examine the biblical beliefs concerning the person of Christ by those KNOWN to be Christians.
Only a person utterly ignorant of the diversity of beliefs and practices of first, second, and third century Christianity, with the scores of competing groups (especially the Gnostics, Judaists, Johannine, and Syrian churches, including the outrageous Carpocratians) would use the standards you employed in claiming Mormons are not Christian.
Stick to the Bible! Does it ever say a person must NOT believe Heavenly Father has possession of a glorious, immortal, material body in addition to being a spirit entity in order to be Christian? Of course not. Pneuma ho theos simply states God is spirit, but since Mormons believe humans are also spirit entities who are united with a material (albeit mortal and weak) body; the contrast is not mutually exclusive. It is possible for both man and God to have both.
I can use the same approach with every single one of your arguments denying Mormons are Christian:
“Does the Bible ever say a person must NOT believe ______________ in order to be Christian?
Every single one is answered in the negative. Ergo, the entire edifice is a red herring and a logical fallacy.
Stick to the Bible! It isn’t hard. What then did the NT Christians believe that MADE THEM Christians?
Well, that’s easy to the honest person. They believed Jesus Christ is:
The Savior.
The Redeemer.
The Messiah.
The Lamb of God.
The Son of God.
God.
The I AM.
The Son of Man.
Born of a virgin.
The First/Last.
The Creator.
The Paraclete/ Advocate/ Comforter.
The Mediator/ Intercessor/ Reconciler.
He died for our sins.
He died on the cross.
He rose from the dead.
The Judge.
The Foundation.
The Rock.
The only Begotten Son of God.
Worshiped.
The name used to pray to the Father.
Obeyed.
We take upon ourselves his name.
The only source of Salvation and the greatest name possible
As I’ve proven, every single biblical criteria for what is a Christian is found in Mormonism (http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/bicycleroad/21/id108.htm ).
However, what you can do when highlighting the differences between what you believe from ours is show Mormonism believes different things than the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant branches of Christianity. Classification-wise, we are all “Christian,” just belonging to different branches.
This irrational intolerance by some “Christians” against Mormonism is foolish, and dishonest. I fully allow you to be considered “Christian” despite you believe things diametric to what I consider genuine characteristics of Christianity. For example, your belief in a God foreign to NT thought that is based on pagan Greek philosophical concepts (God is mind, ontologically formless, nonmaterial, and omnipresent, comprising three hypostatis in one ousia) would be appalling to a NT Christian with a Hebraic mindset outside Philo’s influence. Despite this fundamental difference, Mormons still accept you as Christian, just not belonging to the LDS branch of it.
If you really want to know what Mormons believe, see my free books:
Everything about God the Father: http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/bicycleroad/21/id26.htm
Everything about God the Son: http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/bicycleroad/21/id27.htm
Everything about God the Holy Ghost: http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/bicycleroad/21/id28.htm
Everything about the Doctrine of Exaltation: http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/bicycleroad/21/id33.htm
Everything about the first century Apostasy: http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/bicycleroad/21/id32.htm
If you think you can refute a single chapter, feel free. Twenty years of debating anti-Mormons has convinced me there is not a single argument against Mormonism that holds water.
Oh, and DelphiUser, thanks! I hope my other works are similarly beneficial.
LOL! An honest to goodness LDS Apologist.
The most accurate thing you said is this: “ Twenty years of debating anti-Mormons has convinced me there is not a single argument against Mormonism that holds water.”
I’m sure you ARE utterly convinced. So was I when I was Mormon.
Oh BTW Watson, I know a family of polygamous Watsons from Bluffdale. Part of the United Brethren group. You related?
Mormonism is founded upon the heretical notion that God's Holy Spirit 'lost something' from the human family after the last Apostle died who walked with Jesus. That such a lie is fundamental to the 'restoration' argument of Joseph Smith in his new religion he claimed restored 'real' Christianity says a volume about the basis for following Mormonism.
Mormonism requires the adherent to hold a notion that Jesus would not send His Holy Spirit to one confessing with their mouth that God has raised Him from the dead if that profession occurred AFTER the death of the last Apostle and before the advent of Joe Smith. THAT is heresy, Watson. Regardless of your convoluted arguments regarding Greek influences, etc., Mormonism is founded upon an essential heresy and adherents are admonished to hold a 'testimony' that this heretical notion is truth.
No, not related to my knowledge. Yes, I’m a genuine LDS apologist with more than 80 debates under my belt. However, I’ve grown tired of apologetics - the arguments are always the same and it is rare for me to encounter opponents who are capable of reasonable discourse. I even conceded a tongue-in-cheek defeat to a recent opponent to make him happy since he desperately wanted it for his ego despite the utter foolishness of his claim the Isaiah exclusivity passages support the Traditional Trinity and not the LDS threeness of the Godhead.
As a Mormon, I only abide by one standard: “Whatever is true and whatever is right.” This does not mean I believe the LDS church is perfect or has not taught errors, or has leaders that are infallible. I can point to numerous examples showing these are definitely not so. Despite this, I firmly believe it’s the true church and if it isn’t, then there is no “true church” on the earth, and probably no God either.
Why? Because only Mormonism resolves the problem of evil (http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/bicycleroad/21/id78.htm). Only Mormonism’s multiversal cosmology resolves the problem of a theistic-based reality (http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/bicycleroad/21/id76.htm)
Only Mormonism’s core doctrine of accepting “whatever is true and right” allows perfect resolution of science and religion.
I’ve encountered hundreds of apostates and critics of the church over the years and most refuse to discuss LDS doctrines honestly. They usually dismiss serious discussions out of hand as if not worthy of examination. Such closed mindedness puts to lie their claim of wanting to know the truth. And yet, I’ve also encountered those who simply didn’t understand the Gospel properly or approached it using false assumptions.
In my experience, people who leave the LDS church never do so out of doctrinal issues. Despite claiming they left because they learned the church was false; not one could prove it. Further digging revealed the real reason they left was because they were unable to keep the commandments like the Word of Wisdom, Law of Chastity, or Tithing, were offended by a member or leader, never had a testimony to begin with, or had a false belief that they stubbornly clung to.
Still, I’ll concede there may be cases where this is not the case since it certainly is plausible; but I personally have never encountered them.
I know the church is supposed to have the majority of its members fall away in the Last Days in accordance with the Book of Mormon narrative and it is only the “Righteous Remnant” who will be saved. I’ve resolved to emulate Joshua and stand firm in faithfulness. I hope you return to the body of Christ’s Bride before it’s too late.
Thanks for the ping!
You fill the bill of the standard LDS apologist. LOL
You're not worth arguing with. You have already passed judgement upon me. I am beneath you.
In my experience, people who leave the LDS church never do so out of doctrinal issues. Despite claiming they left because they learned the church was false; not one could prove it. Further digging revealed the real reason they left was because they were unable to keep the commandments like the Word of Wisdom, Law of Chastity, or Tithing, were offended by a member or leader, never had a testimony to begin with, or had a false belief that they stubbornly clung to.....
it is rare for me to encounter opponents who are capable of reasonable discourse
...... Such closed mindedness puts to lie their claim of wanting to know the truth. And yet, I’ve also encountered those who simply didn’t understand the Gospel properly or approached it using false assumptions.
And now we see the biggest threat Mormonism poses to Christianity. One only has to visit sites like ex-mormon.org to see the truth of your following statement. Mormonism has robbed its members of even a potential belief in the true God of Abraham, and the true Christ and the viability of the Bible as the word of God.
Despite this, I firmly believe it’s the true church and if it isn’t, then there is no “true church” on the earth, and probably no God either.
I will put you on my prayer list, Ed. There is no essential reason for you to spend the rest of your life in such confusion unless you prefer it that way. The true Church is connected via the Spirit indwelling the spirtis of those confessing Christ crucified and raised from the dead as your redeemer. According to the first Church Council at Jerusalem, THAT Church needs no temple ordinances or rituals of doctrine to establish Itself because God's Holy Spirit accomplishes the Building as He has since Pentecost. THAT did not cease to be built during the 1400+ years following the death of the last Apostle nor does it require a 'restoration' of temple ordinances and slavery to the law. The Truth of Christ is not buried in some fable offered by an adulterous conman who lived in the ninteenth century. The Turth of Christ is exposed for any to see in the Bible, first in the Old Testament then lived before men as testified in the New Testament.
You both appear to be very enamored with yourselves...
I can't count the number of "I's" in both your posts and homepages...
Humble you both are not...
IMO, you both are deceived.
Before you get all "het up" in that comment...That's not much different than you telling me that Mormonism is the "True Church", and if it's not...there's no God.
Basically it appears in that statement you've proven many questioner's of the BOM/Mormon's...right.
FWIW-
What a crock of bull. You ASSUME God INTENDED for his church to remain on the earth when it was established in the first century. Can you prove it? Of course not. The Scriptures, and the irrefutable fact there was NO single Christian church in the first century both refute this assumption. I can actually PROVE THIS (http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/bicycleroad/21/id32.htm).
What was so incredibly important in the first century was the Incarnation, Atonement, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. EVERYTHING ELSE IS SECONDARY. The first century’s early portion of the church’s apostasy soon after inception (the loss of genuine authority) is irrelevant to the mission of Christ. The heavenly portion of the church remained intact. No one, before or after the first century, is irretrievably lost because everyone will have a chance of accepting the gospel, either in mortality or the next life. The creation of the church in the 19th century was when God intended to permanently establish his earthly church.
Furthermore, who do you think you are to speak for what Mormonism really believes? I am a Mormon and have been for 22 years. I speak for me and my faith - not you, whoever you are. I do not believe people who lived between the first and 19th centuries are damned and neither has my church ever said so.
So before you attempt to spout such nonsense with me; get your facts straight. I’m not someone who is impressed or intimidated when someone cites Scripture or religious arguments.
Besides, it makes me giggle to read such dogmatic declarations (”Mormonism is not Christianity”) since it automatically tells me the shallowness and dishonesty of the speaker. Sure sounds like another mindless, irrational fanatic with nothing better to do.
Thanks for the ping. Edward Watson, I’m a Christian and view Mormonism as a cult that became a culture because the members trekked to Utah and an open space so the cult grew without much outside pressure from day to day questioning of its founder, beliefs, etc. Ostracism, blood atonement, parceling out of wives, financial penalties and incentives and the like enforced a theocratic rule in Utah in the early years of the cult. Just setting out my view, and letting you know that I’m not friendly to Mormonism in terms of the theology or the Church. Like most, I like the Mormons I have personally known, and like most Christians I view Mormons as in danger spiritually and view them as trapped within a self-referential framework that is disconnected from the word of God and the true church. I’m not looking for a response to this, just letting you know where I stand.
The question I have is that you claim to explain evil satisfactorily (and exclusively) in Mormon theology. A glaring hole I see in your theology is the basic question - how did everything come into being? It’s the fundamental question that most children ask themselves when they begin to think about philosophy and religion. God always was, always is, and was the first mover. This answers the fundamental question, and God told prophet after prophet exactly this and put that scripture in our hands in the Bible. What do you, in your theology, think the first mover is?
That was my first thought.
"So how do you answer all those who did read the BOM, and prayed for Holy Spirit guidance....and left the Mormon church?"
DelphiUser replied:
"I could give many answers, but some people just aren't ready yet seems to be the most appropriate, I'm sure a one size fits all answer is wrong in many specific applications of it to any specific person."
CC wrote: "And now we see the biggest threat Mormonism poses to Christianity. One only has to visit sites like ex-mormon.org to see the truth of your following statement. Mormonism has robbed its members of even a potential belief in the true God of Abraham, and the true Christ and the viability of the Bible as the word of God"
Proves in my mind that...Mormon's believe that their church alone is THE ANSWER..and "other Christians" are doomed. Which poses the dichotomy that they are always complaining about having their Christianity questioned. Explaining that "they" are the same as us.....
But wait, DelphiUser says those that have prayed and received answers and LEFT the Mormon Church are "just not ready yet" ( supposely meaning that they aren't ready to "see the light" of Mormonism )...
And Watson says "Despite this, I firmly believe it’s the true church and if it isn’t, then there is no “true church” on the earth, and probably no God either."
Can't have it both ways folks. Ya just can't yell to the treetops that you are "just like other, Christians"..then say if Mormonism isn't the "True Church" then God doesn't exist. Or say...."but some people just aren't ready yet"..after they have sought the Holy Spirit and read the BOM..and rejected it. But affirm their Christianity, based on their knowledge of the NT.
FWIW-
"What was so incredibly important in the first century was the Incarnation, Atonement, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. EVERYTHING ELSE IS SECONDARY." Edward Watson ... Wow, Ed, you missed the entire point of the incarnation, crucifixion, and resurrection! Jesus established something that even the gates of Hell will not prevail against, much less time or the death of the last Apostle who lived with Jesus. The 'incredible importance' of that is reiterated every time a human soul bows before the Christ and is Saved through the atoning death and affirming resurrection. It is heresy to assert that such left the Earth following the death of the last Apostle, Ed.
"No one, before or after the first century, is irretrievably lost because everyone will have a chance of accepting the gospel, either in mortality or the next life." I'm sorry, Ed, you'll have to prove this with Scriptures from the Bible before most of us will contemplate your assertion. Hearing the Gospel and rejecting it in this life ends your chance to be born again IN THIS LIFE OR BEYOND, Ed. Jesus taught this to Nicodemus, as you well know. Mormonism tries to place the emphasis upon water baptism but Jesus placed the crux upon being born of the Spirit.
Dissembling is not pretty, Ed: "I do not believe people who lived between the first and 19th centuries are damned and neither has my church ever said so." You might reread what I offered. I have asserted that fundamental to Mormonism is the FALSE notion that God's Holy Spirit did not come into those confessing Christ after the death of the last Apostle and a man like Joe Smith was therefore essential to restoring the presence of The Holy Spirit. But that was a good try at constructing a strawman which you appear to have well burnt, Ed. GRIN
[Sigh] Why am I not surprised at your reluctance? I only wish I can find apostates who are honest and courageous. I can’t count the number who take one look at my books and scamper away. Look, if Mormonism is false, it should be ridiculously easy to prove it. My writings are right there for all the world to see - I don’t need to rely upon other writers to justify my faith in Mormonism - I’ve done the work myself and show my cards before hand. What more do you anti-Mormons want? Oh, that’s right - the preservation of the illusion we can’t support our church.
Well, when you muster up the courage to refute me, cite the specific chapter and prove me wrong. Otherwise, be incredibly fearful for your soul for squandering God’s greatest gift of exaltation that could’ve been yours if only you didn’t screw up and extricate yourself from the body of his Bride.
You’re certainly free to believe whatever you want - no Mormon will force you to change your mind.
You know, I DID provide links that answered your questions re theodicy and cosmology. Why not just click on the links and read it?
I wrote:
“Why? Because only Mormonism resolves the problem of evil (http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/bicycleroad/21/id78.htm). Only Mormonism’s multiversal cosmology resolves the problem of a theistic-based reality (http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/bicycleroad/21/id76.htm)
Only Mormonism’s core doctrine of accepting “whatever is true and right” allows perfect resolution of science and religion.”
You can't count me in those numbers. I didn't look at your books....[grin]
Look, if Mormonism is false, it should be ridiculously easy to prove it.
How's this for ridiculously easy....
1. The person of Joseph Smith: He was into sorcery, the occult, money digging, and even was a polygamist. He married women that were already married to other men and young girls that were not even adults. He made a plethora of false prophecies.
2. The Book of Mormon: There is absolutely no archaeological evidence whatsoever - no non-biased archaeological foundation has ever found anything regarding the people, the places, animals, artifacts, etc mentioned in the BoM whatsoever. It also contradicts the Bible many many times. It's been changed, added to, and deleted from over 4000 times since 1830. DNA evidence has proven the Book of Mormon a fraud. I could go on and on about this...
3. The Book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price has been proven without a single doubt to be a complete fabrication and completely made up by Joseph Smith. It also demonstrates that Joseph Smith was extremely capable of writing the Book of Mormon and proves Smith to be a false prophet.
4. Not a single LDS doctrine that is unique to the LDS Church can be supported by the Bible - not one. In fact, literally every doctrine that is unique to the LDS Church is refuted by the Bible.
We should keep this simple since I am so (how did you put it?) incapable of reasonable discourse and I have such closed mindedness puts to lie their claim of wanting to know the truth. And yet, I’ve also encountered those who simply didn’t understand the Gospel properly or approached it using false assumptions.
So please keep it simple so I can understand. You know, like the Bible says :"Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it." — Mark 10:14-15 (NKJV)
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