Posted on 07/05/2007 3:00:33 AM PDT by Gamecock
The following draws from the book Is the Mormon My Brother by apologist James White. Earlier this year, Paul Kaiser reprinted a Worldview article titled 10 Mormonism Facts which generated a myriad of responses from visitors who stated that Mormons were being misrepresented and are simply our brothers & sisters in the Body of Christ. Let’s look at what Dr. White presents using LDS resources:
The First Vision
Without question the key revelation in Mormon Scripture regarding the nature of God is to be found in what is known as the First Vision of Joseph Smith. The vision itself is fundamental to all of LDS theology. Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie described the vision:
That glorious theophany which took place in the spring of 1820 and which marked the opening of the dispensation of the fullness of times is called the First Vision. It is rated as first both from the standpoint of time and of pre-eminent importance. In it Joseph Smith saw and conversed with the Father and the Son, both of which exalted personages were personally present before him as he lay enwrapped in the Spirit and overshadowed by the Holy Ghost.
This transcendent vision was the beginning of latter day revelation; it marked the opening of the heavens after the long night of apostate darkness; with it was ushered in the great era of restoration, the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:21.) Through it the creeds of Christendom were shattered to smithereens, and because of it the truth about those Beings whom it is life eternal to know began again to be taught among men. (John 17:3.) With this vision came the call of that Prophet who, save Jesus only, was destined to do more for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. (D. & C. 135:3.) This vision was the most important event that had taken place in all world history from the day of Christ’s ministry to the glorious hour when it occurred.(1)
And Mormon Prophet Ezra Taft Benson said,
Joseph Smith, a prophet of God, restored the knowledge of God. Joseph’s first vision clearly revealed that the Father and Son are separate personages, having bodies as tangible as mans. Later it was also revealed that the Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit, separate and distinct from the personalities of the Father and the Son. (See D&C 130:22.) This all-important truth shocked the world even though sustained by the Bible. (2)
How is it that the creeds of Christendom were shattered to smithereens and the knowledge of God was restored by this one vision? While the story is as familiar to Mormons as John 3:16 is to Christians, we present Joseph Smith’s own recounting of the story in full, taken from the LDS Scriptures (and hence carrying canonical authority). However, we note that the account that appears in the LDS Scriptures was written in 1838, eighteen years after the events described:
14 So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally.
15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon bysome power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.
16 But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)–and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong;(3) and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, Never mind, all is well I am well enough off. I then said to my mother, I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true. It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy? (Joseph Smith History 1:14-20).
What does this vision, recorded in LDS Scripture, teach concerning God? First and foremost, it presents to us the concept of a plurality of gods. This arises from the fact that God the Father is a separate and distinct physical entity from Jesus Christ, His Son. God the Father is possessed of a physical body, as is the Son. This is why McConkie can claim the creeds of Christendom were smashed to smithereens, for the vision has always been interpreted by the LDS leadership to teach that God the Father is a separate and distinct person and being from the Son. The unity of Being that is central to Christian theology is completely denied by Joseph Smith in the First Vision. Hence, you have one God, the Father, directing Smith to another God, the Son.
While it is not our intention to critique these teachings at this point, it should be noted that there are a number of problems with the First Vision, and with the entire development of the LDS concept of God as well. As we noted, this version of the First Vision was not written until 1838. Previous versions, however, differed in substantial details from this final and official account. Most significantly, the presence of both the Father and the Son as separate and distinct gods is not a part of the earlier accounts.(4)
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(1) Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine,2nd ed., rev. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966), pp. 284-285, LDSCL.
(2) Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1988), p. 4, LDSCL. On page 101 of the same book, we read this strong statement:
The first vision of the Prophet Joseph Smith is bedrock theology to the Church. The adversary knows this and has attacked Joseph Smith’s credibility from the day he announced the visitation of the Father and the Son. You should always bear testimony to thetruth of the First Vision. Joseph Smith did see the Father and the Son. They conversed with him as he said they did. Any leader who, without reservation, cannot declare his testimony that God and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith can never be a true leader, a true shepherd. If we do not accept this truth if we have not received a witness about this great revelationwe cannot inspire faith in those whom we lead.
(3) One of Mormonism’s leading scholars, James Talmage (and a General Authority), said the following in the General Conference of April, 1920:
This Church, therefore, from its beginning, has been unique, for the organization of the Church was forecasted in this declaration that at the time of Joseph Smiths first vision there was no Church of Jesus Christ upon the earth; and I do not see why people should take issue with us for making that statement (CR1920Apr:103).
(4) I noted a number of the historical problems with Mormonism in Letters to a Mormon Elder, pp. 88-106. For a fuller treatment of this issue, see H. Michael Marquardt and Wesley P. Walters, Inventing Mormonism (Salt Lake: Smith Research Associates, 1994), pp.1-41, and Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Mormonism: Shadow or Reality? (Salt Lake City: Utah Lighthouse Ministry, 1982), pp. 143-162.
That is another thing you seem to miscalculate I am pressing forward in spite of obstacles in my life. Sometime beings like you have to be reminded of your lack manners!
“NO Tradition of Men Church who Creed orginated in 325 AD represent the Lord Church on earth...”
... only those originating restoration in 1830 AD!
“restoration”
Yea! Crucial things like polytheism, blasphemy, idolatry,
polygamy... and so much more that the church had to do
without for 1500 long, long years.
Best,
The Personage ampu
But using the "God could have..." rationalization proves nothing. God "could have" worn rhinestones, pleated trousers and a feathered boa, but that's not how Scripture describes Him.
(God was once a man) is something that is not "Doctrine" of the church because the prophet and General authorities of the the church have not come out and said it was "Doctrine"
We are bound by Scripture and the indwelling Holy Spirit for all our beliefs, neither of which says anything about God having ever been a human being.
Unlike Joseph Smith and the Doctrines and Covenants of your church, which say exactly that...
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!" (Teachings of the Prophet, J. F. Smith p 345). "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's" (Doctrines and Covenants 130:22). "God himself, the Father of us all was once a man like us." (History of the Church, Vol 6, Joseph Smith p 305).
So this bizarre notion that God the Father was once a man is much more than a "personal belief" -- it is part of your "doctrines" and was taught by your "prophet."
resty,
I don’t agree with you on much, but I admire your
perseverance.
ampu
Being a prophet has its perks, being God is better
Let me count the ways...
"For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God" -- Exodus 34:14
Men do not become God by being Christians. Through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit, we become more and more Christ-like. But we always remain human beings, fallen sinners who are unable to save ourselves and in need of a Savior who will clothe us in His righteousness, His obedience, His mercy.
Your error is the basic lie of the occult -- that men can become gods.
We are saved by Christ within us, not by our becoming Christ ourselves.
It's a distinction upon which our salvation turns.
lol. Everyone needs a goal.
Mormen men get to be God. I don’t think women do. They don’t even get “called up” out of the graves lest their husbands decide they do. So their “Christ” (and I suspect J
Smith be he) doesn’t save anybody. Mormons do not believe in a personal relationship with Christ, and no wonder, they don’t know who He is.
Praise God that He brought you out of that cult of lies!
Romans 8
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Mosiah 3:
19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.
Alma 13:
12 Now they, after being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, having their garments made white, being pure and spotless before God, could not look upon sin save it were with abhorrence; and there were many, exceedingly great many, who were made pure and entered into the rest of the Lord their God.
D&C 11:
12 And now, verily, verily, I say unto thee, put your trust in that Spirit which leadeth to do good—yea, to do justly, to walk humbly, to judge righteously; and this is my Spirit.
***********
Where is the Scripture to support any of this peculiar, heretical notion which exalts man at the expense of the Triune God?Worse, it contradicts scripture, proving itself false
John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him worship him in spirit and in truth.
Well I read that both God and Man worship in spirit!
Yet man still has a body and you can not prove that God dose not a Celestial body, The scriptures only tell us the we worship the Godhead by our spirits
Well I read that both God and Man worship in spirit!
We know that His only begotton Son Jesus Christ has received a Celestial Body
Romans 8
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Where do you get this stuff?
It seems some folks will pick up anything they read and spread it around, it matter not if it is not correct just throw it out there and see if it will stick!
So, you admit the belief that you can become like Jesus, you can become like God. Interesting that scripture says that is the sin of Satan, that is the lie that Satan told Eve where she was deceived. Interesting that it is by grace and grace alone that you are saved, yet your cult has said that what God Himself did was just not quite good enough, that He needs man's help for man to achieve his own salvation. This thread is about whether or not Mormonism is Christian. You just proved that it is not.
Isaiah 14:13-14, You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven;above the stars of God, I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit.
Ezekiel 28:2, 10"Because your heart is proud, and you have said, 'I am a god, I sit in the seat of the gods, in the heart of the seas,' yet you are but a man, and no god, though you make your heart like the heart of a god-- ... You shall die the death of the uncircumcised by the hand of foreigners; for I have spoken, declares the Lord GOD."
1 Sam 2:2: "There is none holy like the LORD; there is none besides you; there is no rock like our God.
2 Sam 7:22: Therefore you are great, O LORD God. For there is none like you, and there is no God besides you, according to all that we have heard with our ears. Gen 3: 4-5: "But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
Eph 2:4-10 "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
The reason your cult is so desirable, the reason that it satifies itchy ears is because it means that if a man does enough good, that he can eleveate himself to the same position as God. And that is blasphemy and heresy. It just is. Not my words, but the Word itself. The god of mormonism just simply is not the God of the bible. The scriptures make that clear over and over. Yet, man wants to make himself like God - Eve fell for it in the garden, Satan lost his position for the same type of pride. It comes in all forms. LDS just happens to be a pretty obvious one.
LDS Apostle Charles W. Penrose wrote:
In the divine economy, as in nature, the man “is the head of the woman,” and it is written that “he is the savior of the body.” But “the man is not without the woman” any more than the woman is without the man, in the Lord. Adam was first formed, then Eve. In the resurrection, they stand side by side and hold dominion together. Every man who overcomes all things and is thereby entitled to inherit all things, receives power to bring up his wife to join him in the possession and enjoyment thereof.
In the case of a man marrying a wife in the everlasting covenant who dies while he continues in the flesh and marries another by the same divine law, each wife will come forth in her order and enter with him into his glory. (”Mormon” Doctrine Plain and Simple, or Leaves from the Tree of Life, by Charles W. Penrose, p.66, 1897, Salt Lake City, UT.)
LDS Apostle Erastus Snow preached the following
It is interesting but still it is not doctrine. I would call this a discourse or pondering the great beyond.
So many here want to take a personal opinion or belief and lable it LDS doctrine.
The offical scriptures and doctrine are in the standard works.
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/contents
On January 1, 2000 I was a very strong true believer. At that moment in time I was serving as 2nd Counselor in the Bishopric of my Ward. And I paid very close attention to everything going on in the church then as an avid reader of every Ensign and Church News edition throughout both decades. While at BYU in the late 80s and early 90s I probably read every copy of the Church News from the 1970s and I probably read most of the copies of the Improvement Era from that same timeframe. In my lifetime I've read the Book of Mormon at least 23 times, most likely about 25-26 but I stopped keepin track at around 21. If the Mormon church was true I'd be back in a heartbeat. And that's the truth, period.
You folks spend more time dwelling on these things than the LDS.
Most are busy earning a living to support their family and do their church calling and being good neighbors and citizen.
When one I keeping their covenants they allow the Lord to edify them.
From your natural man mind set all you can do is faultfind but if you were doing the Will of the Heavenly Father as Jesus taught you would find this kind of behavior repugnance.
The LDS eyes were open because of the Book of Mormon than when one reads the Bible the eyes see the truth was always there, but unable to see or discern it because of the conditioning by the Tradition of Men, in the n=manner they had framed the Lord words. But when one allows the Holy Spirit to teach, many marvelous things began to surface.
Mosiah 3:
19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.
When one is truly in the light of the Lord they would find this kind of behavior of faultfinding bashing of their neighbor faith abhorrence!
Than when reading the Book as you said you have you must of had his radiances!
I can tell who reads the Book of Mormon by the look upon their countenance.
I know when I am basking in his spirit and when the natural man surfaces.
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