Posted on 07/05/2007 3:00:33 AM PDT by Gamecock
The following draws from the book Is the Mormon My Brother by apologist James White. Earlier this year, Paul Kaiser reprinted a Worldview article titled 10 Mormonism Facts which generated a myriad of responses from visitors who stated that Mormons were being misrepresented and are simply our brothers & sisters in the Body of Christ. Let’s look at what Dr. White presents using LDS resources:
The First Vision
Without question the key revelation in Mormon Scripture regarding the nature of God is to be found in what is known as the First Vision of Joseph Smith. The vision itself is fundamental to all of LDS theology. Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie described the vision:
That glorious theophany which took place in the spring of 1820 and which marked the opening of the dispensation of the fullness of times is called the First Vision. It is rated as first both from the standpoint of time and of pre-eminent importance. In it Joseph Smith saw and conversed with the Father and the Son, both of which exalted personages were personally present before him as he lay enwrapped in the Spirit and overshadowed by the Holy Ghost.
This transcendent vision was the beginning of latter day revelation; it marked the opening of the heavens after the long night of apostate darkness; with it was ushered in the great era of restoration, the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:21.) Through it the creeds of Christendom were shattered to smithereens, and because of it the truth about those Beings whom it is life eternal to know began again to be taught among men. (John 17:3.) With this vision came the call of that Prophet who, save Jesus only, was destined to do more for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. (D. & C. 135:3.) This vision was the most important event that had taken place in all world history from the day of Christ’s ministry to the glorious hour when it occurred.(1)
And Mormon Prophet Ezra Taft Benson said,
Joseph Smith, a prophet of God, restored the knowledge of God. Joseph’s first vision clearly revealed that the Father and Son are separate personages, having bodies as tangible as mans. Later it was also revealed that the Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit, separate and distinct from the personalities of the Father and the Son. (See D&C 130:22.) This all-important truth shocked the world even though sustained by the Bible. (2)
How is it that the creeds of Christendom were shattered to smithereens and the knowledge of God was restored by this one vision? While the story is as familiar to Mormons as John 3:16 is to Christians, we present Joseph Smith’s own recounting of the story in full, taken from the LDS Scriptures (and hence carrying canonical authority). However, we note that the account that appears in the LDS Scriptures was written in 1838, eighteen years after the events described:
14 So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally.
15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon bysome power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.
16 But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)–and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong;(3) and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, Never mind, all is well I am well enough off. I then said to my mother, I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true. It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy? (Joseph Smith History 1:14-20).
What does this vision, recorded in LDS Scripture, teach concerning God? First and foremost, it presents to us the concept of a plurality of gods. This arises from the fact that God the Father is a separate and distinct physical entity from Jesus Christ, His Son. God the Father is possessed of a physical body, as is the Son. This is why McConkie can claim the creeds of Christendom were smashed to smithereens, for the vision has always been interpreted by the LDS leadership to teach that God the Father is a separate and distinct person and being from the Son. The unity of Being that is central to Christian theology is completely denied by Joseph Smith in the First Vision. Hence, you have one God, the Father, directing Smith to another God, the Son.
While it is not our intention to critique these teachings at this point, it should be noted that there are a number of problems with the First Vision, and with the entire development of the LDS concept of God as well. As we noted, this version of the First Vision was not written until 1838. Previous versions, however, differed in substantial details from this final and official account. Most significantly, the presence of both the Father and the Son as separate and distinct gods is not a part of the earlier accounts.(4)
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(1) Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine,2nd ed., rev. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966), pp. 284-285, LDSCL.
(2) Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1988), p. 4, LDSCL. On page 101 of the same book, we read this strong statement:
The first vision of the Prophet Joseph Smith is bedrock theology to the Church. The adversary knows this and has attacked Joseph Smith’s credibility from the day he announced the visitation of the Father and the Son. You should always bear testimony to thetruth of the First Vision. Joseph Smith did see the Father and the Son. They conversed with him as he said they did. Any leader who, without reservation, cannot declare his testimony that God and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith can never be a true leader, a true shepherd. If we do not accept this truth if we have not received a witness about this great revelationwe cannot inspire faith in those whom we lead.
(3) One of Mormonism’s leading scholars, James Talmage (and a General Authority), said the following in the General Conference of April, 1920:
This Church, therefore, from its beginning, has been unique, for the organization of the Church was forecasted in this declaration that at the time of Joseph Smiths first vision there was no Church of Jesus Christ upon the earth; and I do not see why people should take issue with us for making that statement (CR1920Apr:103).
(4) I noted a number of the historical problems with Mormonism in Letters to a Mormon Elder, pp. 88-106. For a fuller treatment of this issue, see H. Michael Marquardt and Wesley P. Walters, Inventing Mormonism (Salt Lake: Smith Research Associates, 1994), pp.1-41, and Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Mormonism: Shadow or Reality? (Salt Lake City: Utah Lighthouse Ministry, 1982), pp. 143-162.
kobol... kolob. Neither exists. What is the difference?
Not for you anyways....
LOL
“Press on! It will be clear to any rational human that Mormon doctrine is contrary to the Bible “
To many, it is clear to any rational human that anything other than Roman Catholic doctrine is contrary to the Bible.... are you Roman Catholic or a member of what many consider satanism?
Are you a Catholic? Or what some consider a heretic?
Are you a Catholic? Or what many believe are lamb straying further towards the path of hell?
No, I am not RC. And what do you mean by heretic? Ha.. I don’t think many people would claim they are a heretic.
What made you ask if I was catholic?
You don’t like mormons... I just wonder what else you do not like?
Actually, I don’t have anything against Mormons. I know a few and one in particular is very welcome in my house. It is just that their doctrine is wrong and anti-Christian. They deny the God of the bible. And that is what this thread is about, or at least I thought it was. What are you?
To condemn the spiritual beliefs of individuals is anti objectionist, anti individual, and all too liberal.
Mormons deserve to be treated with high respect. Their doctrine is theirs. Just as Southern Baptist, Methodist, and even Anglican.
You may say this all you want but God knows your reason for saying these ugly things...
God can see into your heart and you mind lupie and why you and others say this kind of stuff
So even if you and others want to continue in your witch hunt on the LDS I know that the Lord is aware of all your behaviors!
I am very well aware that the Lord God knows my heart, as He does yours. On that we agree. We just disagree on whether it is His truth I speak, or what you say is ugly. Each will be held accountable to who we say that He is. And I rest completely in that Truth.
You say you have trouble understanding the Trinity -- "I cannot seem to wrap my mind around the idea that three are not three, but one."
From this I take it you also must not understand the meaning of Christ's words -- "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30).
Yet you say you believe in the Bible.
Christians understand that the doctrine of the Trinity is a revealed truth. If you cannot understand that God the Father is separate but the same as God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, then it hasn't been given to you to know this distinction, and thus you follow some faith other than Christianity.
what does it mean by "dividing the substance"?
What does it mean, "incomprehensible"?
What does it (begotten) mean here?
What does "proceeding" mean?
LOL. Perhaps a dictionary would help.
My impression from speaking to Christians is that the majority imagine God the Father to be a man with long flowing beard and a halo, usually wearing a robe. Jesus they imagine much the way he is depicted in religious art. The Holy Spirit is a spirit, perhaps in the form of a dove.
I don't know any Christians like that. Not to say there aren't some like that, but I haven't met them. If those are the Christians you know, perhaps you might try meeting more people.
Do you believe that some men will rule their own planets when they die? (I can't find the answer to that question in a dictionary, so I thought I'd ask.)
Do you believe there are three levels of heaven (three "degrees of glory")? --
•Telestial - where unbelievers go•Terrestrial - for religious people who aren't Mormons and for Mormons who have not met the requirements of the
•Celestial - for Mormons who have kept ALL of the laws and ordinances of their church.
What will the celestial heaven (kingdom) be like for a good Mormon? Will he be a god; will he rule over a planet with his wives and spirit children?
Do you believe God was once a man?
If you can manage to believe in the above, but have trouble grasping the Trinity, then I guess it just goes to show the world is filled with all kinds of knowledge. Some Scriptural and some not so much.
No you said that the LDS
“They deny the God of the bible.”
That is a lie to say that lupie or even to imply it!
This is not truth this is an opinion and a ugly one at that!
As a convert to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints I know it is the same God of the Bible I grew up with the Lord, he was with me in all the harsh days of my childhood from a tot on up!
Rameumptom:”Besides that you seek to exclude Mormons from “orthodoxy” (another non-biblical term) for a differing view on so called “total depravity” is ridiculous.”
This was not the intent of my post. Logophile asked me to define a true Christian. I was not implying that my primary gripe with Mormons is their view of the sinfulness of man. In my earlier post (#64) highlighted my oposition to Mormonism (polytheism).
Rameumptom:”There are many Chritian Father’s who reject your view of “orthodoxy” including Justin martyr, Origen, Hipollytus etc. Are they Christian?”
Luk 18:26 Those who heard it said, “Then who can be saved?”
Luk 18:27 But he said, “What is impossible with men is possible with God.”
Let us be thankful that what may appear impossible is possible in Christ Jesus. I am not perfect nor is my understanding complete. Yet I do contend without hesitation that Jesus Christ has died for ALL my sins and hence I am forgiven and therefore redeemed.
That being said, I do believe God is not a God of confusion - instead, he is a God of truth, logic and consistency. Therefore, we cannot say two contradictory statements are both true. There is a correct (and absolute) thinking on these theological issues and Paul exhorts us to continually search the Holy Scriptures to discern these truths.
Also consider what Jesus taught:
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.
I don’t contend that we will ever truly know God fully - not ever. But there is a minimum requirment called out in scripture and those who are disqualified will suffer the eternal wrath of God. Perhaps as Jesus implies in Luke, some may even have more responsibility than “the minimum” to qualify. It may be that some of these “Christian Fathers” fall into this category???
Thanks. I already followed the first link, and was not disappointed. The beginning paragraph is very interesting:
The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence. A doctrine so defined can be spoken of as a Biblical doctrine only on the principle that the sense of Scripture is Scripture. And the definition of a Biblical doctrine in such unbiblical language can be justified only on the principle that it is better to preserve the truth of Scripture than the words of Scripture. The doctrine of the Trinity lies in Scripture in solution; when it is crystallized from its solvent it does not cease to be Scriptural, but only comes into clearer view. Or, to speak without figure, the doctrine of the Trinity is given to us in Scripture, not in formulated definition, but in fragmentary allusions; when we assembled the disjecta membra into their organic unity, we are not passing from Scripture, but entering more thoroughly into the meaning of Scripture. We may state the doctrine in technical terms, supplied by philosophical reflection; but the doctrine stated is a genuinely Scriptural doctrine.
This confirms what I have suspected: the doctrine of the Trinity is not Biblical, but philosophy mixed with Scripture. Forgive me if I prefer scripture without the philosophy.
From this I take it you also must not understand the meaning of Christ's words -- "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30). Yet you say you believe in the Bible.
Indeed I do believe the Bible. And I know that Jesus also prayed to the Father that the disciples "may be one, even as we are one" (John 17:22; see also 17:20-23). I do not see how our Savior's prayer can be reconciled with the doctrine of the Trinity expressed in the Athanasian Creed.
Christians understand that the doctrine of the Trinity is a revealed truth. If you cannot understand that God the Father is separate but the same as God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, then it hasn't been given to you to know this distinction, and thus you follow some faith other than Christianity.
Perhaps Christians understand that the doctrine is revealed (although not in the Bible). However, I doubt that many of them actually understand the doctrine itself. Whenever I have asked for a simple explanation, most Christians either evade the question or offer up some form of Modalism.
LOL. Perhaps a dictionary would help.
You are being evasive.
For something that is held to be so essential, it is surprising that the doctrine of the Trinity is present in the Bible only as "fragmentary allusions" that must be assembled from "the disjecta membra" of scripture. It is hard to see how such a doctrine can be held as essential to defining who is and who is not a Christian.
Well, I have to get the children to bed. The answers to your questions about my beliefs will have to wait until a later post.
I didn’t see an answer to a question posed by someone else:
“Do you believe God was once a man?”
HUH?
Since you beleive in the Trinity all in one do you believe that Jesus was once like man?
When it comes to Jews and Gentiles I think its safe to say that the Mormon church and their apologists definitely have a double standard in their brand of modern day mysticism beliefs. First, we have Joseph Smith declaring through revelation that Zion (location of the New Jerusalem where Jesus will reign for 1000 years) is to be built in Jackson County, Missouri; and he declares a specific border between the lands of US white settlers and American Indians to be the line separating Jew and Gentile with the Indians (called Lamanites) being referred to as Jews. See http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/57/4b in Latter-day scriptures for more on this. Next, we have sophisticated scientific research in the 20th century and the present plugging holes into the Mormon scriptural claims about the American Indians' ancestry. Finally, the apologists and defenders of Mormonism give more weight to the teachings of anti-Mormon and other non-Mormon scientists on the origins of the American Indians than they do the words of Mormon prophets Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Spencer W. Kimball, Ezra Taft Benson and even Gordon B. Hinckley and other present-day Mormon apostles. Go read what the so-called apologists/scholars have to say at FARMS (now called the Maxwell Institute). Its amazing how none of them think that the Book of Mormon is a record of the principal ancestors of the American Indians. And their scriptures introduction says, "they [Book of Mormon people] are the principal ancestors of the American Indians"(see http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/introduction). I stand all amazed at the double standards I see so often from Mormon apologists.
But alas I shouldn't be too harsh because I myself used to be a Mormon apologist. But I'm trying to repent now.
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