Posted on 07/05/2007 3:00:33 AM PDT by Gamecock
The following draws from the book Is the Mormon My Brother by apologist James White. Earlier this year, Paul Kaiser reprinted a Worldview article titled 10 Mormonism Facts which generated a myriad of responses from visitors who stated that Mormons were being misrepresented and are simply our brothers & sisters in the Body of Christ. Let’s look at what Dr. White presents using LDS resources:
The First Vision
Without question the key revelation in Mormon Scripture regarding the nature of God is to be found in what is known as the First Vision of Joseph Smith. The vision itself is fundamental to all of LDS theology. Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie described the vision:
That glorious theophany which took place in the spring of 1820 and which marked the opening of the dispensation of the fullness of times is called the First Vision. It is rated as first both from the standpoint of time and of pre-eminent importance. In it Joseph Smith saw and conversed with the Father and the Son, both of which exalted personages were personally present before him as he lay enwrapped in the Spirit and overshadowed by the Holy Ghost.
This transcendent vision was the beginning of latter day revelation; it marked the opening of the heavens after the long night of apostate darkness; with it was ushered in the great era of restoration, the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:21.) Through it the creeds of Christendom were shattered to smithereens, and because of it the truth about those Beings whom it is life eternal to know began again to be taught among men. (John 17:3.) With this vision came the call of that Prophet who, save Jesus only, was destined to do more for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. (D. & C. 135:3.) This vision was the most important event that had taken place in all world history from the day of Christ’s ministry to the glorious hour when it occurred.(1)
And Mormon Prophet Ezra Taft Benson said,
Joseph Smith, a prophet of God, restored the knowledge of God. Joseph’s first vision clearly revealed that the Father and Son are separate personages, having bodies as tangible as mans. Later it was also revealed that the Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit, separate and distinct from the personalities of the Father and the Son. (See D&C 130:22.) This all-important truth shocked the world even though sustained by the Bible. (2)
How is it that the creeds of Christendom were shattered to smithereens and the knowledge of God was restored by this one vision? While the story is as familiar to Mormons as John 3:16 is to Christians, we present Joseph Smith’s own recounting of the story in full, taken from the LDS Scriptures (and hence carrying canonical authority). However, we note that the account that appears in the LDS Scriptures was written in 1838, eighteen years after the events described:
14 So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally.
15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon bysome power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.
16 But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)–and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong;(3) and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, Never mind, all is well I am well enough off. I then said to my mother, I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true. It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy? (Joseph Smith History 1:14-20).
What does this vision, recorded in LDS Scripture, teach concerning God? First and foremost, it presents to us the concept of a plurality of gods. This arises from the fact that God the Father is a separate and distinct physical entity from Jesus Christ, His Son. God the Father is possessed of a physical body, as is the Son. This is why McConkie can claim the creeds of Christendom were smashed to smithereens, for the vision has always been interpreted by the LDS leadership to teach that God the Father is a separate and distinct person and being from the Son. The unity of Being that is central to Christian theology is completely denied by Joseph Smith in the First Vision. Hence, you have one God, the Father, directing Smith to another God, the Son.
While it is not our intention to critique these teachings at this point, it should be noted that there are a number of problems with the First Vision, and with the entire development of the LDS concept of God as well. As we noted, this version of the First Vision was not written until 1838. Previous versions, however, differed in substantial details from this final and official account. Most significantly, the presence of both the Father and the Son as separate and distinct gods is not a part of the earlier accounts.(4)
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(1) Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine,2nd ed., rev. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966), pp. 284-285, LDSCL.
(2) Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1988), p. 4, LDSCL. On page 101 of the same book, we read this strong statement:
The first vision of the Prophet Joseph Smith is bedrock theology to the Church. The adversary knows this and has attacked Joseph Smith’s credibility from the day he announced the visitation of the Father and the Son. You should always bear testimony to thetruth of the First Vision. Joseph Smith did see the Father and the Son. They conversed with him as he said they did. Any leader who, without reservation, cannot declare his testimony that God and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith can never be a true leader, a true shepherd. If we do not accept this truth if we have not received a witness about this great revelationwe cannot inspire faith in those whom we lead.
(3) One of Mormonism’s leading scholars, James Talmage (and a General Authority), said the following in the General Conference of April, 1920:
This Church, therefore, from its beginning, has been unique, for the organization of the Church was forecasted in this declaration that at the time of Joseph Smiths first vision there was no Church of Jesus Christ upon the earth; and I do not see why people should take issue with us for making that statement (CR1920Apr:103).
(4) I noted a number of the historical problems with Mormonism in Letters to a Mormon Elder, pp. 88-106. For a fuller treatment of this issue, see H. Michael Marquardt and Wesley P. Walters, Inventing Mormonism (Salt Lake: Smith Research Associates, 1994), pp.1-41, and Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Mormonism: Shadow or Reality? (Salt Lake City: Utah Lighthouse Ministry, 1982), pp. 143-162.
Mormon’s used to teach that God had physical relations with Mary in order to impregnate her either by insemination or otherwise.
[Now who is making up my motives, when I ask for clarifycation!]
The difference between clarification and insinuation are slight, you need to tread lightly with that game.
Here is an example:
[Could you clarify if you have ever been a liar.]
Clearly that is an insinuation, not a request for clarification. So please don’t try to imply that asking whether I was for running Mormons out of Utah was a clarification when it is a rather low insinuation.
I won’t play that game.
I was in Utah last week. Nice country but way too dry. A river in Zion National Park was nothing more than a stream.
I did manage to find good coffee there! On the other hand, coffee at Yellowstone was horrible. Fair Trade Organic crap. Burnt beyond belief.
Brigham Young, second prophet and president of the LDS church said,
“The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers.” (Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 115).
So I have your outrage and Brigham Young’s words. Which speaks for the Mormon church?
FC I asked you to clarify if I misunderstood I also apologized to you for the confusion.
When someone apologized to me for confusion or misunderstanding I don’t carry on a grudge.
This is all I am saying you accept fine if you don’t fine!
Have a nice day!
Lets go over these terms
Anti Mormon?
Is it not true you are anti Mormon when one knock a faith they also knock the people of that faith they can not be serperated when the LDS say they are One with the Father and the Son.
wretched spirit?
before you left the Church officially your spirit was somewhat docle.
stranger to you
Yes you are now a stranger when you leave the flock!
It is not flaming when you say you would not serve or rent if you the potential customer was LDS.
And this very statement of yours, if you knew one was LDS you would not serve or rent to them in your post, speaks of anti LDS sentiments!
Have a nice day!
Oh, no question about it. I recognize the LDS hierarchy’s authority to do as it sees fit within the confines of the LDS Church.
My reference to heresies are, of course, defined as the Catholic Church defines them. The incorporation of the Arian doctrine, for instance, within the LDS Church presents, in all probability ,an insurmountable gulf between us theologically.
The very nature of Jesus Christ as recognized by our two organizations also presents an insurmountable gulf. We understand that Jesus IS God, one with the Father and one with the Holy Spirit; and that the three are One. LDS apparently understands that Jesus is created by God as a lesser being and, while Jehovah of the Old Testament, is still subordinate. The issue may or may not be of importance to Mormons, but it sure is to mainstream Christianity.
I’ll try to avoid the ‘when did you stop beating your wife’ questions.
New Advent is a very good site for Catholic doctrine, certainly; the USCCB site and the Vatican site are quite authoritative. I must say that it is refreshing to converse with somebody that has a published doctrine and who can refer to it, rather than somebody whose complete theology is affected by the quality of their breakfast, the mood of their wife, the chewings out of their boss, and the quantities of whisky that they consumed the night before. But who all come equipped with a post-dunk get out of hell free card.
Modesty? True; the Mormon beauty pageants that I’ve seen pictures of have the young ladies in fairly revealing bikinis and g-strings, but the overall effect is drastically offset by those large t-shirts and bloomers that they wear underneath!!!!
wretched spirit? Nope, I think you complain more often about being wretched which means (according to Webster's Dictionary) deeply afflicted, dejected, or distressed in body or mind than I ever hope to be. I am healthy, happy, successful, wealthy and wise thanks to God.
I can't say that I've ever had a "docle" spririt even before I left activity in the LDS organization.
stranger to you....Yes you are now a stranger when you leave the flock!
When members of a cult turn their backs on former members and treat them like strangers it is called shunning and is a recognized tactic of cults.
It is not flaming when you say you would not serve or rent if you the potential customer was LDS.
Resty, you failed to understand my stance and it had nothing to do with this thread....you are trying to flame me, and you are still carrying on even though I have answered this question many times and have clairified it....I wish you could understand. I will pray that you will be blessed with the ability to understand my heart.
I hear crickets...
I am talking to you as another freeper so I am not shunning you!
Alright wretched wrong choice of word I should have said more hostile.
It is impossible to seperate a believer from their faith for they are one. So when one is anti a faith they are besmirch the believer too!
Do you have a cite for the artificial insemination of Mary?
Your post made me LOL!
Now THIS I really don't understand!
I was always taught that the shedding of innocent blood was murder (ie: premeditated murder.) Killing in self-defense or during war would not be shedding of innocent blood. Abortion doesn't fall under this, althought the LDS Church does denounce abortion as an extremely grave sin. There are various theories floating around out there that shedding of innocent blood can be denying the Holy Ghost, which is having the knowledge and then turning against it, but I've also been taught that that knowledge is actually having seen God the Father and Jesus Christ, turning against that knowledge and actually persuading people to turn against Christ.
I know in my Internet search, sites came up that talked about blood atonement (which we don't believe in) and in the fact that we allegedly don't believe that when Christ shed his blood on the cross that it paid for our sins (we do believe that shedding His blood is the Atonment and did atone for our sins. However we also must repent of those sins, or suffer in the hereafter for those sins, and then receive our degree of glory...)
I’ll try to read through the post and reply. But be warned, it may be stuff I’ve already responded to many times, so I will ping you.
Beautiful cabin. We are selling our cabin, and need to improve the look of the foundation. Can I print out a copy of this and show it to my dad and brothers for ideas? Thanks!
BTW, I’ve been to your website, you do great work.
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