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Catholic Church & Jesus Christ-Why No One Should Be A Catholic
Apostolic Messianic Fellowship ^ | August 30, 2005 | Why No One Should Be A Catholic

Posted on 03/04/2007 8:21:23 AM PST by Iscool

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To: Ping-Pong
Here you go:

The Primacy of Peter in Scripture 

Matt. to Rev. - Peter is mentioned 155 times and the rest of apostles combined are only mentioned 130 times. Peter is also always listed first except in 1 Cor. 3:22 and Gal. 2:9 (which are obvious exceptions to the rule).

Matt. 10:2; Mark 1:36; 3:16; Luke 6:14-16; Acts 1:3; 2:37; 5:29 - these are some of many examples where Peter is mentioned first among the apostles.

Matt. 14:28-29 - only Peter has the faith to walk on water. No other man in Scripture is said to have the faith to walk on water. This faith ultimately did not fail.

Matt. 16:16, Mark 8:29; John 6:69 - Peter is first among the apostles to confess the divinity of Christ.

Matt. 16:17 - Peter alone is told he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation from God the Father.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus builds the Church only on Peter, the rock, with the other apostles as the foundation and Jesus as the Head.

Matt. 16:19 - only Peter receives the keys, which represent authority over the Church and facilitate dynastic succession to his authority.

Matt. 17:24-25 - the tax collector approaches Peter for Jesus' tax. Peter is the spokesman for Jesus. He is the Vicar of Christ.

Matt. 17:26-27 - Jesus pays the half-shekel tax with one shekel, for both Jesus and Peter. Peter is Christ's representative on earth.

Matt. 18:21 - in the presence of the disciples, Peter asks Jesus about the rule of forgiveness. One of many examples where Peter takes a leadership role among the apostles in understanding Jesus' teachings.

Matt. 19:27 - Peter speaks on behalf of the apostles by telling Jesus that they have left everything to follow Him.

Mark 10:28 - here also, Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples by declaring that they have left everything to follow Him.

Mark 11:21 - Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples in remembering Jesus' curse on the fig tree.

Mark 14:37 - at Gethsemane, Jesus asks Peter, and no one else, why he was asleep. Peter is accountable to Jesus for his actions on behalf of the apostles because he has been appointed by Jesus as their leader.

Mark 16:7 - Peter is specified by an angel as the leader of the apostles as the angel confirms the resurrection of Christ.

Luke 5:3 – Jesus teaches from Peter’s boat which is metaphor for the Church. Jesus guides Peter and the Church into all truth.

Luke 5:4,10 - Jesus instructs Peter to let down the nets for a catch, and the miraculous catch follows. Peter, the Pope, is the "fisher of men."

Luke 7:40-50- Jesus addresses Peter regarding the rule of forgiveness and Peter answers on behalf of the disciples. Jesus also singles Peter out and judges his conduct vis-à-vis the conduct of the woman who anointed Him.

Luke 8:45 - when Jesus asked who touched His garment, it is Peter who answers on behalf of the disciples.

Luke 8:51; 9:28; 22:8; Acts 1:13; 3:1,3,11; 4:13,19; 8:14 - Peter is always mentioned before John, the disciple whom Jesus loved.

Luke 9:28;33 - Peter is mentioned first as going to mountain of transfiguration and the only one to speak at the transfiguration.

Luke 12:41 - Peter seeks clarification of a parable on behalf on the disciples. This is part of Peter's formation as the chief shepherd of the flock after Jesus ascended into heaven.

Luke 22:31-32 - Jesus prays for Peter alone, that his faith may not fail, and charges him to strengthen the rest of the apostles.

Luke 24:12, John 20:4-6 - John arrived at the tomb first but stopped and waited for Peter. Peter then arrived and entered the tomb first.

Luke 24:34 - the two disciples distinguish Peter even though they both had seen the risen Jesus the previous hour. See Luke 24:33.

John 6:68 - after the disciples leave, Peter is the first to speak and confess his belief in Christ after the Eucharistic discourse.

John 13:6-9 - Peter speaks out to the Lord in front of the apostles concerning the washing of feet.

John 13:36; 21:18 - Jesus predicts Peter's death. Peter was martyred at Rome in 67 A.D. Several hundred years of papal successors were also martyred.

John 21:2-3,11 - Peter leads the fishing and his net does not break. The boat (the "barque of Peter") is a metaphor for the Church.

John 21:7 - only Peter got out of the boat and ran to the shore to meet Jesus. Peter is the earthly shepherd leading us to God.

John 21:15 - in front of the apostles, Jesus asks Peter if he loves Jesus "more than these," which refers to the other apostles. Peter is the head of the apostolic see.

John 21:15-17 - Jesus charges Peter to "feed my lambs," "tend my sheep," "feed my sheep." Sheep means all people, even the apostles.

Acts 1:13 - Peter is first when entering upper room after our Lord's ascension. The first Eucharist and Pentecost were given in this room.

Acts 1:15 - Peter initiates the selection of a successor to Judas right after Jesus ascended into heaven, and no one questions him. Further, if the Church needed a successor to Judas, wouldn't it need one to Peter? Of course.

Acts 2:14 - Peter is first to speak for the apostles after the Holy Spirit descended upon them at Pentecost. Peter is the first to preach the Gospel.

Acts 2:38 - Peter gives first preaching in the early Church on repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

Acts 3:1,3,4 - Peter is mentioned first as going to the Temple to pray.

Acts 3:6-7 - Peter works the first healing of the apostles.

Acts 3:12-26, 4:8-12 - Peter teaches the early Church the healing through Jesus and that there is no salvation other than Christ.

Acts 5:3 - Peter declares the first anathema of Ananias and Sapphira which is ratified by God, and brings about their death. Peter exercises his binding authority.

Acts 5:15 - Peter's shadow has healing power. No other apostle is said to have this power.

Acts 8:14 - Peter is mentioned first in conferring the sacrament of confirmation.

Acts 8:20-23 - Peter casts judgment on Simon's quest for gaining authority through the laying on of hands. Peter exercises his binding and loosing authority.

Acts 9:32-34 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and works the healing of Aeneas.

Acts 9:38-40 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and raises Tabitha from the dead.

Acts 10:5 - Cornelius is told by an angel to call upon Peter. Angels are messengers of God. Peter was granted this divine vision.

Acts 10:34-48, 11:1-18 - Peter is first to teach about salvation for all (Jews and Gentiles).

Acts 12:5 - this verse implies that the "whole Church" offered "earnest prayers" for Peter, their leader, during his imprisonment.

Acts 12:6-11 - Peter is freed from jail by an angel. He is the first object of divine intervention in the early Church.

Acts 15:7-12 - Peter resolves the first doctrinal issue on circumcision at the Church's first council at Jerusalem, and no one questions him. After Peter the Papa spoke, all were kept silent.

Acts 15:12 - only after Peter (the Pope) speaks do Paul and Barnabas (bishops) speak in support of Peter's definitive teaching.

Acts 15:13-14 - then James speaks to further acknowledge Peter's definitive teaching. "Simeon (Peter) has related how God first visited..."

Rom. 15:20 - Paul says he doesn't want to build on "another man's foundation" referring to Peter, who built the Church in Rome.

1 Cor. 9:5 – Peter is distinguished from the rest of the apostles and brethren of the Lord.

1 Cor. 15:4-8 - Paul distinguishes Jesus' post-resurrection appearances to Peter from those of the other apostles. Christ appeared “to Cephas, then to the twelve.”

Gal.1:18 - Paul spends fifteen days with Peter privately before beginning his ministry, even after Christ's Revelation to Paul.

1 Peter 5:1 - Peter acts as the chief bishop by "exhorting" all the other bishops and elders of the Church.

1 Peter 5:13 - Some Protestants argue against the Papacy by trying to prove Peter was never in Rome. First, this argument is irrelevant to whether Jesus instituted the Papacy. Secondly, this verse demonstrates that Peter was in fact in Rome. Peter writes from "Babylon" which was a code name for Rome during these days of persecution. See, for example, Rev. 14:8, 16:19, 17:5, 18:2,10,21, which show that "Babylon" meant Rome. Rome was the "great city" of the New Testament period. Because Rome during this age was considered the center of the world, the Lord wanted His Church to be established in Rome.

2 Peter 1:14 - Peter writes about Jesus' prediction of Peter's death, embracing the eventual martyrdom that he would suffer.

2 Peter 3:16 - Peter is making a judgment on the proper interpretation of Paul's letters. Peter is the chief shepherd of the flock.

Matt. 23:11; Mark 9:35; 10:44 - yet Peter, as the first, humbled himself to be the last and servant of all servants.


741 posted on 03/05/2007 5:55:25 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: AlaninSA
You wrote in response to my post:

"Again, a demonstration of a protestant being ignorant... "

That critical statement was directed at an individual. You can sling all the arrows you want against Presbyterians, Protestants, Microsoft, baby kittens, whatever group you want.

But the rules on the FR religion forum forbid you from making personally insulting comments to another poster. Which you did.

If you want, we can ping the RM for clarification. I generally prefer to permit a poster to either apologize or retract the statement. Either way, like all rude and careless remarks, it reflects poorly on the one who makes it.

742 posted on 03/05/2007 5:57:16 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: the808bass
You might think I'm splitting hairs. I do not think so.

I think maybe you're not splitting them enough.

Take the words "To decide what God said?" That's a highly equivocal use of language. Parliament decides what the Queen says, in the sense that she has to say what they tell her to say. In some situations, say in reading a transcript of an intercepted call or bugged conversation, one might have to "decide what someone said". But this could mean deciding WHO (which of several people who might have been speaking) said a particular bunch o' words. Or it could mean more, We know that is was so-and-so speaking but we're analyzing the tape to decide just what exactly she said.

And then there's the case where we know what someone said (If you attack Persia, a great empire will be destroyed) but we're not sure what he meant by it. (It turned out that it meant that Croesus's empire would be destroyed, by the Persians!)

To "accept what God had given to them as Scripture", those who "closed the canon" had to recognize that God gave 'em this document, but maybe not that document, The Acts of the Apostles, but not The Acts of Pilate. In that sense they are deciding what God said.... SOME of what God said, that is.

With such a niceness of distinction required, a thread which begins with the suggestion that RC's think you can buy your way out of Hell is not likely to provide the nurturing environment necessary for such careful discourse.

743 posted on 03/05/2007 6:00:16 PM PST by Mad Dawg ("Now we are all Massoud.")
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To: Iscool
I was raised in the Catholic Church, I went to Catholic School from 1rst through 8th grade. I started public school in high school, only on the premise that I would attend CCD classes at night.


I know there are a lot of good people who are Catholics, my family and a lot of my friends are "hardcore" Catholics, and I love them dearly....however so, this article is the truth. I left the Catholic Church some time ago and never looked back. I'm the only one in my family to do so.


You can't tell me any thing new about the Catholic Church or that this article is false because I was there most of my life.


This is precisely why I worship in a non-denominational Church. At one time I tried to explain these things to my family but they would not accept it as truth, and don't expect to many other to. You'll see the truth only when you're ready to see it.


And don't bother to send me any rebuttal on what I'm saying because I've already been down that road and it goes nowhere. My faith allows others to worship any way, and any god they please, but that doesn't mean that I will.
744 posted on 03/05/2007 6:08:08 PM PST by dagoofyfoot
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To: Mad Dawg

How are you doing, anyway?


745 posted on 03/05/2007 6:09:07 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Oh, by all means...

Being a protestant is in itself a demonstration of ignorance...but if you wish to read into that a personal attack on your person, please do ping the RM.


746 posted on 03/05/2007 6:11:32 PM PST by AlaninSA ("Beware the fury of a patient man." - John Dryden)
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To: free_life

I wonder what I did to deserve a private response from you. Before lecturing me about Roman Catholicism, please read about it and understand what the Church actually teaches about Salvation. You don't.


747 posted on 03/05/2007 6:13:21 PM PST by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: dagoofyfoot

So you can say whatever you want, but one can't rebut. I won't, because it won't accomplish anything.


748 posted on 03/05/2007 6:14:16 PM PST by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: dagoofyfoot
Do what you will, but if you wish to associate with the "Rev" Cooder...that's up to you...


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749 posted on 03/05/2007 6:14:22 PM PST by AlaninSA ("Beware the fury of a patient man." - John Dryden)
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To: wagglebee; Salvation; trisham

She also shows that jpeg of my pint of Guinness which gets me salivating every time. She is the most courteous and righteous woman and always a perfect lady. It is those Gaelic genes, I think. She also has, as wagglebee said, a "heresy slap down meter" and this staunches the venom wagglebee and I are wont to inject for no Christian reason.


750 posted on 03/05/2007 6:22:04 PM PST by Frank Sheed ("Shakespeare the Papist" by Fr. Peter Milward, S.J.)
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To: Salvation

I do one every single day of my life, God willing. It is a long story, but I joined "her" militia some years back. It really changed my life.

I must confess, I haven't had that penance for a long time. A decade, perhaps, but not an entire rosary.

Praise God!
F


751 posted on 03/05/2007 6:25:14 PM PST by Frank Sheed ("Shakespeare the Papist" by Fr. Peter Milward, S.J.)
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To: Salvation

I'll pray for a possible Dominican any day! Wish we had a Chapter nearby. I'd join meself!


752 posted on 03/05/2007 6:27:53 PM PST by Frank Sheed ("Shakespeare the Papist" by Fr. Peter Milward, S.J.)
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To: wagglebee; Salvation; Ping-Pong

(iii) The function of Peter

Our Lord established His kingdom with officials through whom He could dispense His gifts of truth by way of doctrine, and of life by sacrament. The kingdom was to be in the souls of men since apart from that it could have borne no fruit; but it was not to be only in the souls of men. We must complete such phrases of Our Lord as "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you" and such phrases as "The Kingdom of Heaven is like a city upon a hill." But for the protection of the truth and the preservation of the integrity of the channels of life, Our Lord made still further provision by choosing one of the Apostles and giving him special functions. When He first called the Apostles, He said to Simon, the brother of Andrew, "Thou shalt be called Peter"--a word which means "rock." When the end of His time upon earth was drawing near, He made clear the reason for the change of names, "Blessed art thou Simon son of Jonah; it is not flesh and blood, it is my Father in heaven that has revealed this to thee. And I tell thee this in my turn, that thou art Peter and it is upon this rock that I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it; and I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatever thou shalt loose on earth shalt be loosed in heaven" (Mt 16:18-19).

At the Last Supper, when the dispute arose among the Apostles as to which would have first place in His kingdom, Our Lord settled it with the words; "Simon, Simon, Satan has claimed power over you all, so He can sift you like wheat: but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith may not fail; when after a while, thou has come back to me, it is for thee to be the support of thy brethern" (Lk 22:31-32).

After His Resurrection, Our Lord appears among the Apostles and three times asks Peter if he loves Him. As Peter answers each question with an affirmation of his love, Our Lord utters the three phrases: "Feed My lambs," "Feed My lambs," "Feed My Sheep" (Jn 21:16-17). Taking any one of these episodes, we must see that the function entrusted to Peter was very great; taking them all together, we see it is enormous. In the first, he is to be the rock upon whom the Church (which Our Lord here calls also the kingdom of heaven) is to be founded. He is to have supremacy in the kingdom, for Our Lord promised him the "keys" which are a symbol of supremacy; and he is to have a final power of regulation and discipline, for his permissions and prohibitions are to be ratified in heaven. At the Last Supper, something is made explicit which before was certainly present but implicitly. He is to safeguard the unity of the brethern, whom otherwise Satan would scatter like chaff, because by the prayer of God his own faith would not fail, would be unfailable--which brings us to the very word infallibility. The third is the richest of all. Peter is shepherd the whole flock, the little ones and the great. He is to feed them. With what food? The spirit of man needs three kinds of food and Our Lord came to provide them. "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." So truth is food. "My meat is to do the Will of Him that sent Me." So law is food. 'The food I shall give is My flesh for the life of the world." So sacrament is food. Peter must feed the flock with truth and law and sacrament.

Notice most particularly how in all this Our Lord, about to leave the earth, is conferring upon Peter His own special titles. Christ is the foundation (1 Cor 3:11), and He makes Peter the foundation. Christ is the key-bearer--"He bears the key of David so that none may shut when He opens, none open when He shuts" (Rev 3:7)--and He makes Peter the key-bearer. It is to Christ that the power belongs to hold these whom God has given Him, but He gives to Peter the charge of being a support to the brethern. Our Lord had said, "I am the good shepherd"--and He makes Peter to be the shepherd. All this is in line with what we have already seen about the Church as a whole. Our Lord was truthgiver and lifegiver, and the Church is to be truthgiver and lifegiver: that is to say, He will continue to give truth and life through the Church. Our Lord is rock and key-bearer and shepherd: He will continue all that each title implies through Peter. Church or Peter, it is all the same. Neither matters save as an instrument through which Christ has chosen to work.

This then was the provision Our Lord made for the souls of men that they might come to Him, be united with Him and receive His gifts till the end of time. His kingdom would grow as it moved outward and onward toward its two limiting points--all the nations of the earth and the end of time--and there would be some increase of complexity in its structure to meet new needs created by its growth. But all would be within the living framework He established upon earth--one kingdom with a smaller body of officials serving the great body of plain citizens, and among the officials one who is head over the rest and the servant of all. So the kingdom was, when the Holy Spirit descended upon it at Pentecost. So it still is. So till the end of the world it will be.

Theology and Sanity, Frank J. Sheed, ISBN 0-89870-470-7, Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 1993, Part III. Creation. 20. The Kingdom, (iii) The function of Peter, pp. 286-289.


753 posted on 03/05/2007 6:31:10 PM PST by Frank Sheed ("Shakespeare the Papist" by Fr. Peter Milward, S.J.)
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To: AlaninSA
Let's have a little fun with that wackiest of prot sects, the Baptists:

Having grown up in the Baptist Church, I must say what you are saying is true. I do not believe that the scriptures teach totally abstaining from wine, but it is indeed what we were taught, and often!

I do not like "religion bashing" however, whether it be against Catholics or Protestants, so I don't really think "wacky" is is very helpful. There seems to be doctrines of man everywhere, but I think most of agree on the most important thing, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died on the cross for our sins.

I believe I will see everyone who believes this in Heaven, and that makes me happy! Bless you!

754 posted on 03/05/2007 6:38:03 PM PST by ladyinred
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To: gondramB
I keep coming back to this. God wants us to be good to each other and to love Him and ask forgiveness when we do wrong. Those three simple things that God asks simply don't call me to judge the faith and worship of other Christians.

A big amen to that!

755 posted on 03/05/2007 6:41:00 PM PST by ladyinred
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To: Diego1618
"Actually you're wrong here."

No, actually I am quite correct. Jesus named Peter the first head of his church. There has been a very long line of successors that have continuously followed after Peter as Pope of the Catholic Church.

Jesus wasn't hung up on the administrative/marketing stuff. He let someone else name the church "Catholic". Jesus had a lot more important things to do.

756 posted on 03/05/2007 6:51:41 PM PST by DaGman
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To: Salvation
Christ had no brother or sister. Even Luther, Zwingli and Calvin adhered to the perpetual virginity of Mary, the Mother of Jesus.

Not being a Protestant....I can assure you I agree with very little of what these folks say. They're pretty much "Catholic lite".....nothing similar to the New Testament Church of The Apostles.

757 posted on 03/05/2007 7:29:59 PM PST by Diego1618
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To: Ping-Pong
ONLY if you don't speak Greek.

The grammar doesn't line up for Christ to be speaking about himself - he's speaking to Peter.

758 posted on 03/05/2007 7:34:19 PM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: wagglebee
Can you provide a scriptural reference of the Apostle John being the Lord's cousin, because I am not aware of one.

Didn't post #704 do it for you? It showed "Salome" at the crucifixion identified by [Mark 15:40]. It showed "Salome" as the sister of Mary [John 19:25] and showed "Salome" to be the mother of Zebedee's children [Matthew 27:56]. Finally it showed Zebedee to be the father of John and James [Matthew 4:21]. Deductive reasoning would tell us that "Salome" is the aunt of Jesus, "Zebedee"....an uncle and James and John, the "Sons of Thunder" [Mark 3:17] were first cousins of Our Lord.

759 posted on 03/05/2007 7:41:10 PM PST by Diego1618
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To: AlaninSA

You phrased your post poorly. We all do it at times. Most people simply rephrase and go on.

Some stubbornly cling to their errors.

As God wills.


760 posted on 03/05/2007 7:43:57 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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