Catholic Church & Jesus Christ-Why No One Should Be A Catholic

Apostolic Messianic Fellowship ^ | August 30, 2005 | Why No One Should Be A Catholic

[StAthanasiustheGreat]

Honorable Moderator,

I think after 501 posts, this thread deserves to die. Just a thought. I thought it was going to die around 300, then again, I didn't help much.

God bless

[Religion Moderator]

A few flare ups notwithstanding, the thread has resulted in several very informative posts.

[mockingbyrd]

what and miss all the fellowship revolving around misbehaving children in church?

Nah. This thread both educated me and made me laugh...a lot. God brought good out of this.

[gondramB]

>>The thread doesn't qualify for caucus protection because it makes statements about Catholic beliefs which must be open to rebuttal. The caucus label will be removed.<<

Is there a FAQ somewhere the religion section? This is the first I've heard of caucuses or protection - I only post occasionally in this section. I don't want to inadvertently break the rules.

[Religion Moderator]

Sure, the guidelines for the Religion Forum are on my profile page

[gondramB]

>Sure, the guidelines for the Religion Forum are on my profile page<<

I should have figured that out. Thank you.
And darn that was a fast response for the middle of the night.

[redhead]

"LOL - you too? Two weeks ago I was assigned reading the Book of Sirach, a chapter a day, until I finished it. My BF asked if there was something he should know, given the penance."

I just finished reading the book of Sirach. Whew! But it was pithy and wise. I recommend it most highly.

[redhead]

"This unreformed Papist has an incredible soft-side for the East. Orthodoxy is so beautiful. What is so sad, that as the Catholic Church has lost some of Her Traditions and Ancient Practices, Orthodoxy has continued. I find myself a little jealous of that."

Don't feel sad...check out the Byzantine Catholic Rite. The best of both "lungs" of the Church, in my opinion. Fully Catholic, but still Eastern in form and practice.

[gondramB]

>>I stumbled across this page on the net...I haven't looked at the main site...

Seems to be a lot of things here I agree with...Any Protestant agreements, disagreements based on the bible???<<

I'm almost always happy to discuss the Bible and what we can learn there.

I could write a book on my concerns about and differences with the Catholic church. I could never be Catholic.

I could also write a book defending the Catholic church - they have faced so many obstacles, do so much good, work to correct their errors over time and when I heard John Paul II speak or I hear my friend, a retired nun, I KNOW I hear sincere Christians seeking to do as God asks.

And I certainly don't have a problem with stating that I think an action is wrong - whether we are talking about terrorism or someone stealing from or harming others while they claim to act in God's name...

But this paper feels bad. It feels deliberately hurtful. It doesn't matter if Pastor G. Reckart gets some details right or not if the intent is to harm other Christians and their faith.

I keep coming back to this. God wants us to be good to each other and to love Him and ask forgiveness when we do wrong. Those three simple things that God asks simply don't call me to judge the faith and worship of other Christians.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You said, "good works have nothing to do with it" - but the Bible says "faith without works is dead."

I was making a joke with Alex Murphy who said he'd have to "work harder."

But I'm glad you discovered a theological significance in my comment even if that's not what I was talking about.

Good works have nothing to do with our salvation. Good works are the result of our rebirth by the Holy Spirit; not a requirement for it. We cannot earn God's mercy. Christ alone is the reason for our redemption.

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." -- Ephesians 2:10

Again, a demonstration of a protestant being ignorant...

I forgive you for making a personally insulting remark which is against the posted rules of the FR religion forum.

[IIntense]

Relics. I took a relic of a saint, which our mother had, to the hospital on one of the many occasions my younger brother had to be there. I told him I brought it, and put it with his personal belongings.

From the onset of his illness in early 2003, I firmly believed that he would recover. I put all my faith in God and would not waver.

He died March 28, 2006.

My faith in prayer died also, as in, whether we pray or whether we don't, God decides.

I've been asking God daily for years and years to please heal my daughter's eyesight, to give the answer to the researchers working on Stargardt's disease which left her legally blind at age eight.

She'll be 45 in a few months, but still no cure.

Fortunately, with the specialized computer screen and camera she has at work and at home, along with her gift of intelligence and her determination, she is a CPA and works as an auditor. But her daily life is harder for her than most of us.

I've begun to pray to God again. It's what I've always done, yet I don't know if it matters.

The only explanation I've ever heard is that God will say yes or no. Of course...because the explainer has no real answer either. The answer would be exactly the same to someone who did not pray, and the outcome would be the same, too.

From any comments I've read on the subject of Catholicism, for the most part, any doubts or questions are not tolerated.

Nevertheless, many Catholics do have questions. God gave them a brain and many have been blessed with intelligence, and I believe they have the innate right to use their own mind to determine what is logical or illogical.

[markomalley]

Are you saying that the Church chose what books are in the Canon? They had that kind of power? To decide what God said? Or did they maybe accept what God had given to them as Scripture? You might think I'm splitting hairs. I do not think so.

Allow me to quote the following (from a non-Catholic source, btw):

Third Council of Carthage (A.D. 397).

The Third Council of Carthage was not a general council but a regional council of African bishops, much under the influence of Augustine. The English text below is from Metzger.

Canon 24. Besides the canonical Scriptures, nothing shall be read in church under the name of divine Scriptures. Moreover, the canonical Scriptures are these: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, the four books of the Kings, the two books of Chronicles, Job, the Psalms of David, five books of Solomon, the book of the Twelve [minor] Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Tobias, Judith, Esther, the two books of Ezra, and the two books of the Maccabees. The books of the New Testament: the Gospels, four books; the Acts of the Apostles, one book; the epistles of the apostle Paul, thirteen; of the same to the Hebrews, one epistle; of Peter, two; of John the apostle, three; of James, one; of Jude, one; the Revelation of John. Concerning the confirmation of this canon, the Church across the sea shall be consulted. On the anniversaries of martyrs, their acts shall also be read.

There are writings pointing to a synod at Hippo in 393 that made the first pronouncement of the canon, but I haven't been able to find the actual quote.

In answer to your specific questions:

• Are you saying that the Church chose what books are in the Canon?

  History shows that it was a more gradual process than anything. But, face it, there were PLENTY of texts floating about in those days. Some of them might be genuine writings that were canonical, some of them might be authentic writings that were not canonical, some might be pseudographs. This Canon 24, quoted above, was more of an affirmation.

• They had that kind of power?

  Well, not in of themselves...but we believe that the Holy Ghost worked through them.

• To decide what God said?

  Without such a list, how would we know that the Gospel of Thomas was not an inspired work? The Gnostics around today would have you believe it was...

• Or did they maybe accept what God had given to them as Scripture?

  I think you're closer here. You should remember that, particularly with the "New Testament" writings, there wasn't an organized "New Testament" prior to Jerome compiling the Vulgate in 382 AD. Originally, there were individual writings: e.g., St. Paul sent a letter to a church and that letter was circulated back and forth between churches. For example, the four gospels that we are familiar with were determined to be canoncial during the 2nd century (as documented by Iraneus)

But the fact remains that the writings were originally written as separate works and that those works were gradually accepted as inspired over a period of little more than 300 years. By whom? By the Catholic Church. And, in 393, they codified the list into what is known as the Canon. Again who? The Catholic Church.

[Tax-chick]

I'm so glad you found something that was valuable to you. That's what FRiends are for!

[Northern Yankee]

Good Morning!

Yes... I am very thankful of our rich and deep faith.

We are the lucky ones that have the richness of a faith that has fulfilled us in more ways we can ever imagine.

God bless you during this holy time of Lent. May God guide you each day as you make your sojourn to Easter Sunday!

[jo kus]

Why do (some) Protestants define themselves in contrast with Catholicism?

That's a good question, because I do not know any Catholics who take a similar view towards their brother Protestants. While I cannot answer for the typical Protestant, I would venture to say that some groups tend to vilify the Catholic Church so as to justify their current theological stance - hence, the hatred of some towards the Church. The very term "Protestant" is a contrast to what they are protesting against.

Regards

[steve8714]

We are men of action. Life is about what we do. God is life.

[Uncle Chip]

I read Scott Hahn's article from your link on Mary as the Queen Mother and found this quite interesting:

"Now turn over to 1st Kings 2. There's where David gives his royal charge to Solomon and Solomon asks for wisdom, but just browse and just go through that as quickly as you can and just see what is going on here because it is very unusual. Let's take a look in particular at verse 13. "Now Adonijah, the son of Haggith, went to Bathsheba, Solomon's mother. Bathsheba asked him, 'Do you come peacefully?' He answered, 'Yes, peacefully,' then he added, 'I have something to say to you.' 'You may say it, she replied.' 'As you know,' he said, 'the kingdom was mine. All Israel looked to me as their king. But then things changed and the kingdom has gone to my brother for it has come to him from the Lord. Now I have just one request to make of you. Do not refuse me.' 'You may make it she said. So he continued, 'Please ask King Solomon, he won't refuse you, to give me Abishag, the Shunamite as my wife.'" If you understood palace politics, you'd see what this was. "Very well," Bathsheba replied. "I will speak to the king for you." Abishag happened to be David's last lover and wife. She was the one young woman who kept him warm in his old age, sleeping next to him at all times. To have David's last wife would be to have official claim to the throne. This is why Absolom publicly slept with David's concubines after he threw his father out of Jerusalem, because if I have the Queen Mothers, if I have the king's wives, who do you see as your king? Solomon is no fool. When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, look what happens. The king of Israel, the son of David, the supreme head of God's covenant people in the whole world, according to Psalm 2 stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne and he had a throne brought for the king's mother and she sat down at his right hand. "Sit at my right hand," Psalm 110. That's the position of authority. I have one small request to make of you. She goes on and makes the request. Solomon sees through it. Says no, of course, and executes Adonijah.

The only recorded request in all of scripture by a Queen Mother of the King, and the one who had approached the Queen Mother with the request is summarily executed by the King. What lesson can be learned from that??? Think about it.

[Iscool]

You said "Jesus traded HIS sins for mine".....uh...what sins did Jesus commit, cool one??

I mis-spoke...Jesus traded his record for mine...His sinless record for my sinful one...But you knew what I meant, didn't you...

Did Jesus trade his sinless record for your sin filled record???

[Iscool]

Have you been baptized? Perhaps the Catholic Church recognizes the baptism performed by your church.

Twice...Once with the Holy Spirit, and once afterward in a lake...I was immersed...

I don't care whether your church recognizes my baptism or not...The question is, does the word of God recognize your baptism???

[Eagle of Liberty]

The Catholic church developed this money scheme to milk loving Catholics who cared for a deceased loved one.

Guess I better up the percentage on my 401k to MAKE SURE that I get into heaven......