Posted on 03/04/2007 8:21:23 AM PST by Iscool
1 Cor 3 is not talking of the doctrine of pugatory but of the condition of mens hearts now. I see no reason to add to that.
Of course, the biggest problem in communities of faith is not incorrect doctrine, but a simple inability or lack of desire on the part of the adherents to believe the doctrine as established by the church(es) or to follow it in the practice of their lives.
When you come down to what the adherents believe, it is quite different than what the church(es) teach. For example, only 48% of Catholics believe that Jesus lived without sin according to a poll done by the Barna group. And "Buster" Christians (Proddy, I believe) were found more likely to try to avenge a perceived wrong than an average joe-on-the-street.
That is Satan's plan. Not perverting our doctrine. Or beguiling us with the ability of each of us to interpret Scripture. It's the simple apathy of getting caught up in what's best for us or what's easy. That, in my opinion, is far more dangerous than a few "mini-popes" running around (or even 30,000). And it affects all of us. Holy, Apostolic, and Catholic or not.
Transitives don't work really well in theology. Jesus is God. Mary is His Mother. Mary is a Mother of God. Mothers of gods are goddesses. Mary is a goddess.
Please go back and read your Bible again, for instance, where were all the bodies that rose from the dead and started roaming the city when Christ arose from the dead? Where did they comee from? A waiting place that Catholics call Purgatory.
You are correct, you will not find "Purgatory" in the Bible, but it is there. I could change subjects and ask, "Where do you find "Rapture" in the Bible?" It's not there!
So here are the references for Purgatory. Read through them and think about the waiting to be perfect to enter the kingdom of heaven as you read. Purgatory is a place of purification for those of us who die not at saint or without having received the Annointing of the Sick.
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.
Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.
Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.
Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.
Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.
1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.
Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.
2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.
Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.
Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).
1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).
1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).
1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, "but only" (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase "but only" (or “yet so”) in the Greek is "houtos" which means "in the same manner." This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.
1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).
1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God's temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.
1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.
I finally posted the Purgatory Scriptures. See 1124
Wow! Nice!
However, you are correct that a whole lot of people don't even follow the doctrine that they (officially) profess. Actually, it begins before that ... they don't even know the doctrine that they officially profess ... see your data about only 48% of Catholics believing Jesus lived without sin.
Catholic catechesis has stunk in this country since the early 1960's. And, unfortunately, we aren't the only ones who can make that claim.
Ahh, Facts, Facts, make it stop. LOL.
Many Catholics have read the Catechism. We reference it all the time. And there is a new more concise version called the Compendium that is easier.
That's about 4 times more transitives than I planned to use.
I should also point out that this one: "Mothers of gods are goddesses." (which is where you went off the rails) isn't even always true in paganism, and never is in Christianity.
The rest of what you say is the point of view that generally seems to go with the Sola Scriptura line of country. Invisible Church and so forth. The problem is that it's my reading of Scripture and prayer that were a big part of what led my to joint what I think is the Church and not a denomination.
** As an example is the doctrine of praying for the dead which is referenced in Maccabees, conveniently discarded from the Protestant Bible. **
Yes, by Luther!
Faith without works in James -- again Luther.
Faith ONLY -- the word, only added by, you guessed it, Martin Luther!
**Many Protestants insist beliefs must be Biblically-based to be true, but when confronted with Scripture verses which directly contradict their beliefs, refuse to conform their thinking to what Scripture actually says. I just find Protestant theology to be totally disingenuous.**
The Protestant Bible has been corrupted, alas!
And, Yes, we need to worry about the same thing happening to our Constitution!
It's a passive participle. Kecharitomene is not what Mary did. It's what she was given from the One who gives grace. A more accurate translation, in my opinion, would be "who has had grace shown to her."
Does it make sense that God would put Jesus, sinless as he was, inside a woman who had sinned? I think not.
Does it make sense that Jesus would become a man, but remain fully God? Nope. Did it anyway. I find your argument as advanced by Catholics to be utterly unconvincing. Why is logic applied in that place when it cannot be applied to the Incarnation at large? If one can't explain how Jesus was fully human and fully God (for just one aspect of the Incarnation), why do we feel the need to explain Mary's state in relation to sin?
Thanks. You da BOMB!
Right. Transitives lead us off the rails in theology. We agree.
You got the double whammy...
I'll pray for the other one as well.
Mighty hard to catch up on 400 posts but I'm trying.
**That is at the end of the tribulation. Your good works don't save you. Your good works come after salvation. No one is going to stand in front of The God of creation himself and be able to say one thing he did to obtain eternal life.**
Where are you getting this? Not from Revelation, for there at the GENERAL judgment -- the sheep are already separated from the goats.
But what happens at your PARTICULAR judgment? Do you know when that happens?
At the moment of death.
And we will have to answer to Christ who gave us the Beaitutudes -- all about showing mercy to different people in different situations. That is works!
I would wager that a far larger number of those Catholics know that the Church teaches that Jesus lived without sin and yet they don't believe it. In the same way that the Proddies know that their churches teach that avenging oneself is wrong but they do something different. So, doctrine is not the biggest problem there in my estimation.
I disagree. Wrong doctrine is a big problem.
There's error. Which is abundant. And damnable error. Which is not nearly as abundant, at least in my estimation.
I would qualify that with my own quote.
The internet has done for heresy what the printing press did for Protestantism.
-the808bass
**Interpretation is inherent in reading. We learned that in what, 2nd grade?**
Yep, from a former teacher.
No, not necessarily.
But transitives built on top of invalid statements like "mothers of gods are goddesses" are guaranteed to lead us off the rails.
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