Posted on 02/15/2007 2:16:28 PM PST by NYer
K, given all that you have ever posted about Orthodoxy, I can't for one minute begin to accept that a "spiritual" father/bishop, would approve a couple to practice contraception, given what we know about "the pill".
Birth control pills are routinely described as "contraceptives", that is, things that prevent conception, the beginning of a new human life. But in fact birth control pills sometimes act as "abortifacients", things that cause abortion.
Birth control pills act in three basic ways: (This information can be obtained from any standard reference work, such as the Physician's Desk Reference.)
The newer low-dose pills are less effective at preventing ovulation and therefore rely more on the remaining two functions. As an egg is microscopic, it can be difficult to tell in any given case whether an egg really has been released. But Dutch gynecologist Dr Nine Van der Vange made an extensive study of women using these pills. She found proof that an egg had been released in 4% of the cases, and found follicle growth typical of what one finds in early pregnancy in at least 52% of cases.
The workings of the mini-pill are not fully understood, but it appears to allow ovulation at least 40% of the time, according to Emory University's Contraceptive Technology. Ovulation expert Dr. John Billings estimates that between 2 and 10 per cent of a woman's cycles are still ovulatory even when she is taking the Pill. That means there is a chance she can still conceive a child; but because of the Pill's effect on the lining of the womb, the child will not be able to implant, and will be expelled from the mother's body. Although this might seem to be a small percentage risk, over time the likelihood is great. Moreover, there really is no such thing as a "negligible" risk of aborting a baby. In this case, any risk is too great.
Ping to post #41.
"K, given all that you have ever posted about Orthodoxy, I can't for one minute begin to accept that a "spiritual" father/bishop, would approve a couple to practice contraception, given what we know about "the pill"."
I wouldn't know what "spiritual" fathers/bishops do. In the "Catholic" church do "priests" and or "bishops" make their private advice and counsel to their spiritual children a matter of public discussion?
"What does this word mean? : "theologoumenna" "
Its the plural of theologoumennon. :)
I disagree, I think Humanae Vitae is a remarkable work of prophecy and showed that in or out of season the Chair of Peter must speak Truth to the times. The fact that the laity just want to be a product of the times rather than eternity is nothing new.
"The fact that the laity just want to be a product of the times rather than eternity is nothing new."
I'll grant you that. The Latin Church certainly seems plagued with that attitude, at least at most levels below the Pope. My 2 cents worth of problem with Humanae Vitae (and its just that because Orthodoxy doesn't teach what Humanae Vitae teaches in any dogmatic manner) is not with what it says, but rather with its results, the ecclesiology which gave birth to it as dogma in the first place and the less than satisfactory way the Latin Church advises getting around it.
No it does not. It allows God to order our lives. We do not create a breach between the recreative and procreative aspects of human sexuality. It relies heavily on chastity and self-discipline. Two things God tends to encourage among His people.
and second, having done that, one hopes, it allows the participants to indulge in what some Fathers viewed as animalistic behavior.
The Church does not teach that sex is Purely for procreation, that is merely the flipside of humanism which sees it as purely for recreation. As for the Early Fathers of the Church, it strikes me as undeniable that they were against the idea that human sexuality revolves purely around the pleasure principle.
It means "Opinion."
"No it does not. It allows God to order our lives."
That's just a bit too disengenuous, T. If the Latin Church really believed this, there would be absolutely no point whatsoever in practicing NFP, indeed it would be forbidden as it would always be up to God as to when a child is conceived. Maybe God wants a child conceived during a wife's fertile period. Doesn't abstention then "frustrate" God's purpose?
In practice perhaps not; but in theory - of course you do. You just posted it above, with justification. Essentially, you have stated that "this is a personal matter between the priest/bishop and the married couple".
In the Catholic Church, this is NOT a personal matter. Church teaching clearly outlaws any form of artificial birth control. The only resort for Catholics following such a practice is to confess this sin. What happens in the confessional is then quite private. However, any priest who approves (not absolves) them of this sin is complicit. That is quite different from the Orthodox position that you cited.
"In the Catholic Church, this is NOT a personal matter. Church teaching clearly outlaws any form of artificial birth control."
I know, and it doesn't work does it? It has just caused the laity to show contempt for the Latin Church's teachings.
"However, any priest who approves (not absolves) them of this sin is complicit."
Catholic "priests" absolve people of their sins? Remarkable; another difference with Orthodoxy.
NFP works ... in fact, it is rapidly growing as the form of choice by the Evangelicals! How comforting to know that what the Catholic Church has always taught is now being picked up by non-Catholic denominations.
It has just caused the laity to show contempt for the Latin Church's teachings.
You're really stretching it here, aren't you, K? Even you conscience dictates that the Church should never legitimize abortafacients to their members.
I'm not running too well on the clear side today, I was looking for what the Orthodox belief is. What is Orthodox's position?
Of course it does! The fact that timing may be off and a baby results doesn't mean that the whole exercise of NFP isn't designed to avoid just that.
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by this.
Thanks for the definitions....
Actually, I don't know of any Catholic families practicing illict methods for preventing pregnancy. Our parish is refered to as Humane Vitae parish by our pastor. Of the Catholics I went to school with, all are very open about how their marital lives are in complete harmony with the Church's teachings.
I am surrounded by those who hold the Church's teachings in the highest regard. So, from my personal experience, it's working just fine.
Ding Ding Ding!
Round one complete, sports fans!
In one corner we have K with "priests" and in the other we have N with abortafacients.
Are you ready to Ruuuummble!????
DING!
"I know, and it doesn't work does it?
NFP works"
That's not what you were talking about nor what I was responding to. The dogmatic declaration hasn't worked, NYer. NFP, like other kinds of birth control works sometimes and sometimes it doesn't. That's not the point.
"You're really stretching it here, aren't you, K?"
You really think so? Why is Roman Catholic contraceptive usage marginally higher than the rest of the population then? For that matter, why is the abortion rate for Catholic women substantially (not marginally, substantially) higher than for Protestant women?
In the meantime, abortion is murder. That's an easy case, NYer. I do have to wonder why, however, the abortion rate among Catholic women is so high.
Does the Orthodox Church have a position on the morality of abortaficiant contraceptives, such as the pill, the depo shot, norplant, IUD etc, all of which agknowledge at least the possibility of having abortaficiant side effects?
Have some questions and observations, but to tired to right now.
"In one corner we have K with "priests"...."
"Priests", the "Catholic" church and "bishops" come from the attitude which produced "spiritual" fathers/bishops. :) I'm glad someone noticed. Ironic!
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