Posted on 02/15/2007 2:16:28 PM PST by NYer
"Does the Orthodox Church have a position on the morality of abortaficiant contraceptives, such as the pill, the depo shot, norplant, IUD etc, all of which agknowledge at least the possibility of having abortaficiant side effects?"
Abortion is murder. That's the Orthodox position.
Ouch, sports fans! K comes out with an upper-cut. N is stunned, but gathering strength.
And abortaficiants are recognized as such and are condemned?
I am not trying to badger you, I hope it doesn't come across that way. I am feeling especially think tonight, been battling my daughter on eating brocoli. Apparently the only way that will work is if you eat it as though you are Cookie Monster.
So that's the brain cell level I'm at right now...thanks for your patience.
"And abortaficiants are recognized as such and are condemned?"
I sincerely do not know what spiritual fathers tell their spiritual children about this. I do know, because our Metropolitan, as well as virtually all other Orthodox metropolitans in this country at least and in Greece, regularly and publically condemn abortion by any means, that it would seem likely that they are. By the way, a lot of good it does. The abortion rate in Greece is staggering.
I wasn't born at the time either, but your understanding is basically how I heard it too.
But, according to a previous post, the decision to use 'artificial birth control' (i.e. an abortaficient), is okay. Please clarify the diffference for us. When is it 'okay' to abort an unborn child, in the Orthodox Church, using artificial birth control?
All of this talk about abortifacient birth control pills because they prevent implantation leads me to the following question:
If you believe prevention of implantation is abortion, then the logical belief that follows is that every time a fertilized egg doesn't implant, a woman has a miscarriage and a soul goes to wherever unborn baby souls go, whether heaven, or the discredited limbo, or somewhere else.
I don't believe the Church has ever taken that stance which, IMHO, makes the birth control pills are abortifacients per the Catholic Church argument difficult to maintain.
How so? whether heaven, or the discredited limbo, or somewhere else
Please remember that this is a Caucus thread. Respectful questions and discussion of the issues is the point. This statement reads as an attack on particular Catholic thought.
Of course it works. The problem, obviously, is that those who hear it are not listening. They would prefer to hear those positions that support their practices. That is not about to happen!
Why is Roman Catholic contraceptive usage marginally higher than the rest of the population then? For that matter, why is the abortion rate for Catholic women substantially (not marginally, substantially) higher than for Protestant women?
Personal choice! If I turn a deaf ear to what my priest tells me, I have then opted to follow my conscience, even if it is diametrically opposed to what the Church teaches. That is not the fault of the Church.
I do have to wonder why, however, the abortion rate among Catholic women is so high.
Is it? What is the abortion rate among Catholics?
Turrning a deaf ear towards the teachings of one's Church does not negate them. On the other hand, when a Church accedes to the weaknesses of its members and justifies their failings, I would step back and take a closer look.
Let's just say your assertion about contraceptive use and abortions among Catholics are accurate. (I have never seen those statistics, but honestly it wouln't surprise me, at least the abortion one)
So what?
What does that have to do with the truth or wisdom of a particular teaching? Last time I checked truth wasn't a popularity contest. Look at Christ in John 6. As a majority of His followers abandoned Him due to His teachings, did He modify anything, decide that He was wrong? No. So why does the fact that people refuse to believe something make it in error?
awwww.....and I was getting fond of the guy.....
"When is it 'okay' to abort an unborn child, in the Orthodox Church, using artificial birth control?"
Never, so far as I know.
Sort of. It isn't just guidance, like a suggestion. A spiritual father often has to "guide" firmly and it is accepted that way by good Orthodox.
"What does that have to do with the truth or wisdom of a particular teaching?"
It may or may not have anything to do with the truth of the teaching; it may have a great deal to do with the wisdom of it and whether or not it is truly dogma.
"What does that have to do with the truth or wisdom of a particular teaching?"
It may or may not have anything to do with the truth of the teaching; it may have a great deal to do with the wisdom of it and whether or not it is truly dogma.
"That is not the fault of the Church"
Well, we do all have free will. I contend, however, that by declaring something dogma ex cathedra which the people haven't accepted, this is an unfortunate result of a theological/ecclesiological mistake.
"Is it? What is the abortion rate among Catholics?"
If one includes Hispanic women, 33% higher than among Protestant women. Looked at another way, the rate of abortion among Catholic women of all ethnicities in the US is 5.1 per 1000 pregnancies.
By the way, I have been a member of my state's Right to Life organization for many, many years.
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