Posted on 02/15/2007 2:16:28 PM PST by NYer
What do you object to? I think Humanae Vitae began some clarification of the Church's teachings, which could more clearly been seen in John Paul the Great's Theology of the Body. It is wrong to try to separate the unitive and procreative aspects of love. I saw a couple of quotes from the fathers that do not accurately represent the Church's teachings.
Not every act of love must result in pregnancy, but every act of love must mirror the life giving love of the Creator.
I don't know the Orthodox position on this.
It takes a little courage to post / discuss some topics, doesn't it? Thank you for posting.
"The first difference, of course, is in the names. Natural Family Planning versus Artificial Contraception."
Not so at all. According to the Scholastics, the problem with artificial contraception is the FACT that it violates a Natural Law principle, namely the "intimate" connection between the unitive and procreative purposes of sex.
Quite aside from that, the simple fact of the matter is that virtually all of the Fathers were celibates and like Jerome (but unlike, interestingly +John Chrysostomos) viewed even marital intercourse as animalistic and best supressed save for procreation.
The problem with NFP is two fold. First, by it very nature it is designed to separate without penalty, the unitive and procreative aspects of marriage and second, having done that, one hopes, it allows the participants to indulge in what some Fathers viewed as animalistic behavior.
"What do you object to?"
I don't object to any part of it. It isn't dogma in my church. I do object to a system which declares ex cathedra a dogma which the Laos tou Theou clearly have rejected and which then persists in that dogma. As you know, in Orthodoxy, no proclaimed dogma is accepted as dogma until the Laos tou Theou proclaim their "Axios" by living out that dogma in their lives. The Latin faithful have done quite the opposite when it comes to Humanae Vitae. But they and the Latin Church, have no way to deal with that situation. That, MB, breeds contempt for all dogma, let alone teachings which are in the category of theologoumenna.
" Not every act of love must result in pregnancy, but every act of love must mirror the life giving love of the Creator.
I don't know the Orthodox position on this."
The ban on artificial birth control is not dogmatic. It is theologoumennon. In any event, Orthodoxy leaves the issue to the couple and their spiritual father/bishop.
That is not the tenor of this post. God has blessed you with 4 children (all beautiful in His sight) and the medical expertise to deliver them by C-section. You and your wife are no doubt grateful to Him for these gifts in your marriage.
The tenor of this post is to point out that the Early Church Fathers were in full agreement with God that children are a gift and preventing pregnancy should not be accomplished through artificial means.
There is no doubt that abortifacient conctraception should not be used by any practicing Christian.
So do you oppose any and all types of regulation of birth?
NFP does not sever the unitive and procreative nature of sex. A couple using NFP is acting in an unitive and procreative act whenever they have intercourse. The fact that life does not come from each and every act is not due to the nature of the act they engaged in. This cannot be said of a contracepting couple.
Jerome and Augustine's views on the sanctity of sex are not in keeping with the Catholic Church's teachings. While it is understandable why Augustine viewed things the way he did, and Jerome, from what I can tell was kind of grumpy about a lot of stuff, the fact is, that's not the way God views it. The ability to love, and it is love not some animalistic behavior, with a life giving love is yet another way we are made in the image and likeness of God.
Should a couple use NFP as a means of postponing conception, there is a penalty. The denial of gratification at that point in time. It is a sacrifice. And I do not think that those who struggle with infertility, and therefore cannot bring forth life through their sex, are not behaving in an animalistic fashion. Although the fathers would disagree with me on this point.
By "couple", I am assuming you mean 'married'. If so, then you have entirely missed the point. Sex is the only means to produce offspring. Marital sex does not entail generating 25 children. Read the Fathers, again.
One thing that I've noticed in the US is that Roman Catholic families and Orthodox Christian families are about the same in numbers of children.
There are exceptions, of course. My dad was one of 8 children and my mother was one of nine (no, that's not a name you Star Trek geeks!). However, you don't see many families that large any more.
Axios
theologoumennon
Got to run, but will respond later, in the mean time, I so don't know what these terms mean....care to dumb it down to my level? :)
See post #26.
I do mean married.
"So do you oppose any and all types of regulation of birth?"
My personal opinion is really neither here nor there; I agree with Orthodoxy's position.
"NFP does not sever the unitive and procreative nature of sex. A couple using NFP is acting in an unitive and procreative act whenever they have intercourse. The fact that life does not come from each and every act is not due to the nature of the act they engaged in."
Of course it does! The fact that timing may be off and a baby results doesn't mean that the whole exercise of NFP isn't designed to avoid just that.
The Orthodox allow for artificial birth control.
Because of the lack of a full understanding of the implications of the biology of reproduction, earlier writers tended to identify abortion with contraception. However, of late a new view has taken hold among Orthodox writers and thinkers on this topic, which permits the use of certain contraceptive practices within marriage for the purpose of spacing children, enhancing the expression of marital love, and protecting health.
"Laos tou Theou >/i>
Axios
theologoumennon"
The People of God
Worthy (meaning here we assent and agree)
A pious belief or teaching which one may accept or reject.
In Orthodoxy, the Assumption is an example of a theologoumennon, though that one borders on actual dogma. Something like the ban on ABC would likely never been seen as dogma in any event. It might be set up as a sort of disciplinary canon, but that would always presuppose the "out" of economia.
"The Orthodox allow for artificial birth control."
Well, yes and no. As I said earlier, at most one would look at the issue as one of discipline, at least insofar as non-abortifacient methods go. As such, economia applies and so far as I know, the bishops have left its exercise up to the spiritual father of the couple. The default position, and it is disciplinary/praxis, is no ABC.
Some topics, such as this one, touch sensitive nerves. It is quite difficult for anyone who has practiced artificial birth control, to confront the truth (i.e. reality) of God's design. And when you consider that our contemporary christian acceptance of artificial birth control only began in 1930, it can be downright mind boggling to consider that up until that time, ALL christian churches rejected artificial birth control.
I still recall the news coverage of Second Vatican Council and the official announcement of the Catholic Church's position on this topic. Everyone, especially Catholics, anticipated that the Catholic Church would take a 'contemporary' stance on this by approving the use of the pill. It was a shock - literally - to learn that Pope Paul VI defended traditional Church teachings. In his encyclical on this, Pope Paul VI wrote:
Neither is it valid to argue, as a justification for sexual intercourse which is deliberately contraceptive, that a lesser evil is to be preferred to a greater one, or that such intercourse would merge with procreative acts of past and future to form a single entity, and so be qualified by exactly the same moral goodness as these. Though it is true that sometimes it is lawful to tolerate a lesser moral evil in order to avoid a greater evil or in order to promote a greater good," it is never lawful, even for the gravest reasons, to do evil that good may come of it (18)—in other words, to intend directly something which of its very nature contradicts the moral order, and which must therefore be judged unworthy of man, even though the intention is to protect or promote the welfare of an individual, of a family or of society in general. Consequently, it is a serious error to think that a whole married life of otherwise normal relations can justify sexual intercourse which is deliberately contraceptive and so intrinsically wrong.
Many Catholics, as Orthodox freeper Kolokotronis has already pointed out, rejected the Catholic Church position and 'followed their own consciences' in this matter. Their decision to do so, in no way abbrogates the Church's teachings on the matter. Sadly, only one church has rigidly defended this position on contraception, further testimony that our Lord promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide His church on earth. This was not a popular decision and the Church has never backed down on this teaching.
Following his election as pontiff, JPII began delivering a series of teachings on The Theology of the Body. If you're up to it, this might be a good lenten study.
If my understanding is correct, the laity did not begin to reject the ban on ABC until they saw that other Christians were beginning to permit it, and even then any deviations prior to the release of the encyclical were due to the anticipation that Pope Paul VI would "change the doctrine" to "bring the Church in line with the times."
That's how I understand it... I don't know firsthand because I wasn't there, as I wasn't born yet.
Also, so far as ABC and the Orthodox goes, would it not be more prudent, considering both the side effects even of the non-abortifacient methods and the arguments from the Fathers as provided, to suggest NFP? Would this not especially be so if there is any doubt concerning it as a doctrine of the ancient Church (as Paul VI and Catholics since have claimed?)
(Just some thoughts I had)
" If my understanding is correct, the laity did not begin to reject the ban on ABC until they saw that other Christians were beginning to permit it, and even then any deviations prior to the release of the encyclical were due to the anticipation that Pope Paul VI would "change the doctrine" to "bring the Church in line with the times."
That's how I understand it... I don't know firsthand because I wasn't there, as I wasn't born yet."
Oh I don't know why Catholics rejected it. It may be for the reasons you said. I was alive and kicking back then, but frankly wasn't paying that much attention! :) I will say that perhaps the anticipation was because the people saw that prior teachings were too rigid and should be changed. You know, for many, many centuries, The Church ranked abortion far below such sins as murder and even adultery because of deficient knowledge on the biology of conception.
"Also, so far as ABC and the Orthodox goes, would it not be more prudent, considering both the side effects even of the non-abortifacient methods and the arguments from the Fathers as provided, to suggest NFP? Would this not especially be so if there is any doubt concerning it as a doctrine of the ancient Church (as Paul VI and Catholics since have claimed?"
Maybe some spiritual fathers do suggest that. In any event, I do think Orthodoxy is wise to leave this to the spiritual father of the couple or their bishop.
What does this word mean? : "theologoumenna"
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