'The Nativity Story' Movie Problematic for Catholics, "Unsuitable" for Young Children

LifeSiteNews.com ^ | 12/4/2006 | John-Henry Westen

[Kolokotronis]

BD, you have missed Alex's point. In Greek, despite the fact that there are words which directly translate the English word cousin (the word is ξαδελφος, the word you used, συγγεννες, means relation or kinsman)the fact is, whether you as an English speaker want to accept it or not, the Greek word αδελφος which indeed does mean brother can and often does also mean cousin or a male relative of some sort. Your argument that the Temple elders spoke of Christ they also spoke of his "brothers" and "sisters" in a context which indicates they all lived in the same place and thus must be what we in English call brothers and sisters, doesn't wash. Until WWII in the Middle East and even in Greece, groups of related people all lived on pretty much the same patch of ground, though in different houses usually (but by no means always). These places, like my own family's land in Greece, is almost like a family compound; in fact some are exactly that. What you are reading describes a set up like my own family's 70 years ago in Greece (pretty much so even to this day). BD, the fact is that until a generation or two after the Reformers, no Christian believed that Christ had brothers and sisters the way we in English use those words. Your interpretation is in great measure ethno and glossocentric.

[Gene Eric]

>> Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!

Excellent tag. And, I will continue to do so each and every day.

[Kolokotronis]

"I think that disgust with the church of that era led the reformers to throw out all the past as well."

That's pretty much my theory too. Add to it that the Latin Church certainly preached then as it did until, well into our lifetimes, that +Basil and +Athanasius and +Ignatius and +Gregory and +Maximus, etc etc etc were all Catholics in the sense of Roman Catholics and that The One Church is co-extensive with the Roman Church and only the Roman Church (something it sort of still teaches) and one can readily see why, in confusion, they might have rejected beliefs and practices that there was no need to reject at all in an effort to root out Romanism.

[xzins]

Thanks, Gene.

They deserve our prayer.

[blue-duncan]

"Whose sperma are you hinting at?"

It's a very simple question. Gen. 3:15 say there will be enmity between the seed of the serpant and the seed of the women. Is the seed of the woman referred to here by God, Jesus?

[Pyro7480]

Does the Septuagint version of Gen. 3:15 have the personal pronoun "she" or "he"? The Vulgate says "she."

[Dajjal]

Matthew 1:23 "Behold a virgin shall be with child, and bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
Cf. Isaiah 7:14.
The noun "virgin" is the subject of both verbs.

I should have added that the virgin bringing forth her child while remaining a virgin is just as much part of the miraculous sign given to King Achaz by Isaiah as the virgin conceiving.

[kosta50]

xzins: this truly is the first time ever in my entire life that I've encountered the teaching that Mary did not physically deliver Christ through her birth canal

Kolokotronis: New for me too, Padre. I've never heard such a foolish thing

You have been taught that Thetokos delivered thrugh a birth canal?

[kosta50]

The LXX says "he."

[blue-duncan]

I appreciate what you have said but that doesn't explain the listing of the names of the brothers. It also does not explain the double use of adelphos for brothers and sisters. If they were talking about cousins, one word would have sufficed for male and female, especially when we have a word for cousin in Luke.

All of the other uses of the word in the New Testament are for members in a believing community, Israel or the church.

[Kolokotronis]

"Does the Septuagint version of Gen. 3:15 have the personal pronoun "she" or "he"? The Vulgate says "she." "και εχθραν θησω ανα μεσον σου και ανα μεσον της γυναικος και ανα μεσον του σπερματος σου και ανα μεσον του σπερματος αυτης αυτος σου τηρησει κεφαλην και συ τηρησεις αυτου πτερναν"

I expect you are refering to what I have marked in boldface which means "her seed". The personal pronoun She does not appear in the passage; your, refering to the serpent and "he " and "his" refering to, I think, mankind.

[Kolokotronis]

"You have been taught that Thetokos delivered thrugh a birth canal?"

How else? Has my education been deficient in some manner?

[Pyro7480]

I was referring to the subject for the verb that is translated as "will crush." In the Vulgate, it is "ipsa conteret," "she will crush" the serpent's head. This translation has an important role in the Catholic idea of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

[kosta50]

Is the seed of the woman referred to here by God, Jesus?

Where do you get that from?

[blue-duncan]

Gen. 3:15.

[Kolokotronis]

"I appreciate what you have said but that doesn't explain the listing of the names of the brothers. It also does not explain the double use of adelphos for brothers and sisters. If they were talking about cousins, one word would have sufficed for male and female, especially when we have a word for cousin in Luke." You've lost me. What would listing the names have to do with it? And as for using the masculine αδελφος for brothers and sisters, well, we all say Τον δι'ημας τους ανθρωπους (Who for us men) in the Creed but we mean all humans.

[kosta50]

Inspiration and education are not incompatible

Neither is ignorance. Fishermen are not known for their academic prowess, or even literary skills. They knew the truth, not by education, but by inspiration.

[kosta50]

Gen. 3:15.

LOL.

I do n't see anything about Jesus there.

[Kolokotronis]

"I was referring to the subject for the verb that is translated as "will crush." In the Vulgate, it is "ipsa conteret," "she will crush" the serpent's head. This translation has an important role in the Catholic idea of the Blessed Virgin Mary."

Ah, well the Greek is pretty clearly referring to "her seed" (masculine) bruising his heel on the serpent's bruised head. The Greek doesn't seem to say that the woman will bruise her heel.