Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
'The Nativity Story' Movie Problematic for Catholics, "Unsuitable" for Young Children
By John-Henry Westen
NEW YORK, December 4, 2006 (LifeSiteNews.com) - A review of New Line Cinema's The Nativity story by Fr. Angelo Mary Geiger of the Franciscans of the Immaculate in the United States, points out that the film, which opened December 1, misinterprets scripture from a Catholic perspective.
While Fr. Geiger admits that he found the film is "in general, to be a pious and reverential presentation of the Christmas mystery." He adds however, that "not only does the movie get the Virgin Birth wrong, it thoroughly Protestantizes its portrayal of Our Lady."
In Isaiah 7:14 the Bible predicts the coming of the Messiah saying: "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel." Fr. Geiger, in an video blog post, explains that the Catholic Church has taught for over 2000 years that the referenced Scripture showed that Mary would not only conceive the child miraculously, but would give birth to the child miraculously - keeping her physical virginity intact during the birth.
The film, he suggests, in portraying a natural, painful birth of Christ, thus denies the truth of the virginal and miraculous birth of Christ, which, he notes, the Fathers of the Church compared to light passing through glass without breaking it. Fr. Geiger quoted the fourth century St. Augustine on the matter saying. "That same power which brought the body of the young man through closed doors, brought the body of the infant forth from the inviolate womb of the mother."
Fr. Geiger contrasts The Nativity Story with The Passion of the Christ, noting that with the latter, Catholics and Protestants could agree to support it. He suggests, however, that the latter is "a virtual coup against Catholic Mariology".
The characterization of Mary further debases her as Fr. Geiger relates in his review. "Mary in The Nativity lacks depth and stature, and becomes the subject of a treatment on teenage psychology."
Beyond the non-miraculous birth, the biggest let-down for Catholics comes from Director Catherine Hardwicke's own words. Hardwicke explains her rationale in an interview: "We wanted her [Mary] to feel accessible to a young teenager, so she wouldn't seem so far away from their life that it had no meaning for them. I wanted them to see Mary as a girl, as a teenager at first, not perfectly pious from the very first moment. So you see Mary going through stuff with her parents where they say, 'You're going to marry this guy, and these are the rules you have to follow.' Her father is telling her that she's not to have sex with Joseph for a year-and Joseph is standing right there."
Comments Fr. Geiger, "it is rather disconcerting to see Our Blessed Mother portrayed with 'attitude;' asserting herself in a rather anachronistic rebellion against an arranged marriage, choosing her words carefully with her parents, and posing meaningful silences toward those who do not understand her."
Fr. Geiger adds that the film also contains "an overly graphic scene of St. Elizabeth giving birth," which is "just not suitable, in my opinion, for young children to view."
Despite its flaws Fr. Geiger, after viewing the film, also has some good things to say about it. "Today, one must commend any sincere attempt to put Christ back into Christmas, and this film is certainly one of them," he says. "The Nativity Story in no way compares to the masterpiece which is The Passion of the Christ, but it is at least sincere, untainted by cynicism, and a worthy effort by Hollywood to end the prejudice against Christianity in the public square."
And, in addition to a good portrait of St. Joseph, the film offers "at least one cinematic and spiritual triumph" in portraying the Visitation of Mary to St. Elizabeth. "Although the Magnificat is relegated to a kind of epilogue at the movie's end, the meeting between Mary and Elizabeth is otherwise faithful to the scriptures and quite poignant. In a separate scene, the two women experience the concurrent movement of their children in utero and share deeply in each other's joy. I can't think of another piece of celluloid that illustrates the dignity of the unborn child better than this."
See Fr. Geiger's full review here:
http://airmaria.com/
INDEED.
I’m making it slowly through that hefty book. 326 pages plus 150 or so appendices. I think I’m on page 70 something.
It’s interesting the weight given to
A BROKEN HEART. And NOT the broken and contrite heart before God sort, per se . . . but just a broken heart from life experiences. That can easily be a broken and contrite heart before God but takes some different attitudes and choices to get it there, I think. Will know more when have read all those parts.
Sure has tons of Scripture in it. Seems like about 25% of it is Scripture . . . or more.
I think he’s right on in everything I’ve read so far.
Hmmm, created in the image and likness....a backseat driver. You are outdoing yourself, FK. :)
The interpretation that is MOST consistent with the latter clearer understanding is that God always gets what He wants
FK, God is Love and Love only gives. He needs nothing. To imply that God "wants" means that He is subject to passions created out of needs, as we have passions based on needs.
He simply gives us blessings and a chance to be saved. And when we fail, He gives us more. There is nothing God "wants" from us that He can get.
We have a rational, omnipotent Being
Rational? Rational as in "My throught are not your thoughts?" Whose reason are you referring to? Ours or His? And it if is His, is it something we can comprehend? Or are we stuffing Infinite God to our finite logical box?
God did not cause Adam to sin, but ultimately, it is clearly what He wanted, under my theology
Unfortunately, that much is clear. I do credit you for the courage to admit that in your theology God ultimately created Adam so tha he would fail.
How do you answer people when they ask you why God allows so much suffering in the world if He is a loving God?
Since free will is not in your theology it is a pointless question.
You are also correct that I believe that God created them that way, with that specific predestination. I realize this is a difficult thing for very many people to agree with. However, the ultimate responsibility still lies with the individual
And "we" (Orthodox and Catholics) are turning God into "God Emeritus!?!" Look how He is suddenly no longer "sovereign" in youre theology, but the ultimate [sic]responsibility lies with man (although GOD is always in CHARGE and GOD predestined him to fail!).
In addition, we are specifically told that God hated Esau, and from that we can extrapolate that He also hated Judas, and others
LOL!! Did God not create Esau and predistined him to sell his birthright? Did God not create Him knowing that he would do just that? Did Esau have a choice? How can he hate Esau, FK when He made it to be what He made him?
According to your theology God crerated Esau in order to hate him!
In your theology Judas is an obeident servant who does the dirty work and then gets cast into hell for his obedience!?!
So, then, Pontius Pilate and Caiaphas were really doing God's work too. Irresitably, yet the ULITMATE responsibility was theirs...ant not of their Maker.
In your theology God is not Love; He is only a god who loves some.
Wrong on both counts.
The exhortation was given
TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE.
The available classes IN THE CONTEXT OF THE SCRIPTURE ARE:
THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE
VS
THOSE WHO BELIEVE.
Which class do you prefer to be in?
= = =
Also . . . Scripture indicates that believers . . .
John 20:23 (Amplified Bible)
Amplified Bible (AMP)
Copyright © 1954, 1958, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1987 by The Lockman Foundation
[AMP at Lockman] [The Lockman Foundation] [Amplified at Zondervan] [Zondervan]
23[Now having received the Holy Spirit, and being [a]led and directed by Him] if you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of anyone, they are retained.
John 20:23 (The Message)
The Message (MSG)
Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson
[The Message at Navpress] [NavPress]
22-23Then he took a deep breath and breathed into them. “Receive the Holy Spirit,” he said. “If you forgive someone’s sins, they’re gone for good. If you don’t forgive sins, what are you going to do with them?”
John 20:23 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain
[A Public Domain Bible] [KJV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]
23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
John 20:23 (New Living Translation)
New Living Translation (NLT)
Holy Bible. New Living Translation copyright © 1996, 2004 by Tyndale Charitable Trust. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers.
[NLT at Tyndale] [Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.]
23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven. If you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
John 20:23 (Young’s Literal Translation)
Young’s Literal Translation (YLT)
Public Domain
[A Public Domain Bible]
23if of any ye may loose the sins, they are loosed to them; if of any ye may retain, they have been retained.’
AND:
Matthew 16:19 (New Living Translation)
New Living Translation (NLT)
Holy Bible. New Living Translation copyright © 1996, 2004 by Tyndale Charitable Trust. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers.
[NLT at Tyndale] [Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.]
19 And I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you forbid[a] on earth will be forbidden in heaven, and whatever you permit[b] on earth will be permitted in heaven.”
Matthew 16:19 (The Message)
The Message (MSG)
Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson
[The Message at Navpress] [NavPress]
19”And that’s not all. You will have complete and free access to God’s kingdom, keys to open any and every door: no more barriers between heaven and earth, earth and heaven. A yes on earth is yes in heaven. A no on earth is no in heaven.”
Matthew 16:19 (Amplified Bible)
Amplified Bible (AMP)
Copyright © 1954, 1958, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1987 by The Lockman Foundation
[AMP at Lockman] [The Lockman Foundation] [Amplified at Zondervan] [Zondervan]
19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind (declare to be improper and unlawful) on earth [a]must be what is already bound in heaven; and whatever you loose (declare lawful) on earth [b]must be what is already loosed in heaven.(A)
Matthew 16:19 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain
[A Public Domain Bible] [KJV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]
19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Matthew 16:19 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
[NKJV at Thomas Nelson] [Thomas Nelson, Inc.]
19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed[a] in heaven.”
Matthew 16:19 (Young’s Literal Translation)
Young’s Literal Translation (YLT)
Public Domain
[A Public Domain Bible]
19and I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.’
I appreciate your sentiment.
However,
I have a LOT of experience with the magicstericals of a wide variety of denominations.
I’ve NEVER observed any of them—including the RC variety—
to be all that much more reliably accurate in
1. Biblical accuracy, truth, discernment, balance, focused on God’s priorities . . .
2. Biblical application of Biblical truths to specific issues, situations, individuals, . . .
3. Biblical exhortations, counsel, requirements, administrations etc.
We all see through a glass darkly. And far too often, when we do so in groups, the darkness is merely compounded instead of decreased. That’s true of ALL magicstericals in ALL denominations, in my experience. The RC’s have demonstrated over 100’s of years . . . that they are not exempt from such flaws regardless of the dogma claiming such exemption. Their magicsterical bodies have compounded papal and other egregious sins and errors quite as much as any other, and frequently enough more and to worse degrees.
So, I must differ as to the necessity, even the wisdom of such. I think Alamo-Girl is quite correct in clinging to Scripture and the ‘LEADING INTO ALL TRUTH ENLIGHTENMENT OF HOLY SPIRIT’ MOMENT BY MOMENT. That, too may not be flawless on an individual basis—but, in my experience, for each individual, that route is FAR LESS FLAWED than leaning on a magicsterical and THEIR blind-leading-the-blind meat axe applications of THEIR flawed constructions on reality
laid upon a given individual in usually heavy handed ways—and those rather ignorant of the true realities and details in the individual case.
Sooooo, in short . . . no thanks. I’d rather take my chances otherwise. Magicstericals are invited to give me input if they feel so led of The Lord. But I will take such under advisement and NOT automatically as the voice of God to me in that moment. Having done so many times and virtually always lived to regret it—I’m trying to avoid falling for the same dangerous horrors over and over again at age 60.
I didn't say anything about accuracy, especially as determined by you. I was talking about magisterial *authority*. If you think magisterial *authority* is contingent on agreement with you, then you don't understand the concept of magisterial authority. But carry on.
-A8
Indeed, I eschew all the doctrines and traditions of mortal men across the board. Instead I choose to believe God, to trust Him, to count on Him - looking to the Father's revelations in Jesus Christ, in the Holy Spirit, in Scripture and in Creation.
I'm just a plain and simple (and very, very joyful) Christian - throwing all caution to His wind.
BTW, I appreciate all the pings to the sidebars on this thread - but it has become so large, I've been resisting the urge to dive in again. LOL! I do tend to chew up a lot of bandwidth you know.
The Pharisees were utterly 100% convinced that they walked 100% in
THE AUTHORITY OF GOD ALMIGHTY.
Yet Christ—God Himself—called them sons of the devil.
When Holy Spirit lifts an anointing off an individual or a group—regardless of their positions, heritage, rank, prior anointings, . . .
THEN, WITH THE ANOINTING LIFTED, THE AUTHORITY IS ALSO AT LEAST PARTIALLY LIFTED, LESSENED, GONE.
Authority is not identical to anointing but there is a very close relationship between them—particularly in this Church Universal era.
Thanks Dear Sis.
But a lot of us profit A LOT
WHEN
you chew up a lot of bandwidth.
!!!
LUB, HUBBY, TOO.
As you may know, most all the heretics of the first four centuries claimed that the authority has been lifted from the Catholic bishops. How could they have known that it was not the case that the authority had been lifted, but rather that the authority remained in place and they themselves (by being in substantial disagreement with the authority) had fallen into heresy? What makes you think you are so much smarter and "in tune with the Spirit" than all the heretics of the first four centuries?
-A8
i EXPECT that you do so in your spirit already. So I don’t doubt that you are routinely led of The Lord on such scores . . .
I just want to put in my vote for as much as possible!
I think I used to think that issue was more problematic than I now think it is.
I’ve met folks in every group who . . .
just . . .
smell
of the Presence of The Lord.
Some literally do.
But at least some show forth His countenance in their spirit, face, tones, interests, focus, Loving-kindnesses, Love of and wisdom with His Word and with other people . . . etc.
Whenever I run into such a person, they have my rapt attention and I’m eager to learn from them of The Lord. It doesn’t matter what denomination they are in. It is obvious that they spend time with God and hear His voice above average accurately.
Others . . . may have degrees piled as high as the horse biscuits around them . . . and usually their convictions about their own flawlessness . . . their convictions about their own grandeur are . . . as high and mighty as their images of themselves . . .
They may have 1,001 folks acclaiming their magnificence and worthiness . . . yet I’m wise to run far and fast from them.
Perhaps you’ve had similar experiences.
Our challenge is to walk in His Light and not wander off into the darkness of our vain imaginings.
INDEED, A-G.
Adiareton . . . the hazards are common, of course.
But, truly, in my experience, tradition, nor size, nor homogeneity, nor consensus, nor even fasting rigors [though helpful often enough], nor any kind of law keeping or hoop jumping; nor spiritual lineage; nor Scripture memorization; nor flagilation real or symbolic or psychological/emotional; nor wide acclaim; nor oratory; nor logic; nor any other feature of a group . . . unless perhaps the rare uncommon Lovingkindnesses and humility of very, very, very few and small groups . . . but practically speaking . . .
NO FEATURES OF ANY GROUP I’ve ever been part of or in close observational contact with—nothing has vetted the group sufficiently spiritually to allow anything remotely close to the respect and submission that you seem to treat so casually and seemingly faithfully in an almost blind faith kind of way.
When I’ve dared travel that route, I’ve suffered greatly and repeatedly. It has been as though God has smacked my hands and burned my buns good for daring to do so vs trusting HIM AND HIM ALONE. Not that I believe we are all best as lone rangers. Not that at all.
There is wisdom in many counselors to a degree. That is a Biblical truth. But there’s just no substitute for God directly AND NO SAFETY, PER SE, . . . CERTAINLY NO AUTOMATIC SAFETY in any group—ANY group’s construction on spiritual reality.
Not in my experience and not in my reading of the Scriptural record of New Testament times groups.
Also, Dear Heart Adiareton . . .
I think there is perhaps some special emphasis on holding groups loosely and attending most intensely and supremely on GOD ALONE DIRECTLY in these END TIMES.
When things get more intense—even in the birth pangs leading up to the Tribulation period . . .
We will not be able to ring up the magicsterical in any denomination and get a ruling on what the most Biblical, spiritual, wise, safe, kosher course of action is.
WE MUST HEAR GOD’S VOICE DIRECTLY CLEARLY AND ACCURATELY for the sake of our lives as well as our ministry and the lives of our family members. AS Scripture indicates for probably multiple meanings and applications . . .
He shall say—here is the way, walk in it . . . turn right . . . now left, now straight ahead . . .
And if we don’t the enemy wins some or takes us out prematurely.
MD ping.
MD . . . I don’t know how wholesale you fit that characterization . . . but enough to have certainly grabbed my attention and heart above average. That’s one reason the discord was so horrible, to me.
Thanks for hanging in there with me.
LUB,
BTW,
It doesn’t have anything to do with being smarter . . .
unless choosing to be most child-like approaching God is smarter . . . as it is . . .
Actually, I’ve found a surprising number of brain damaged or lacking children to be more Christlike than most spiritual leaders.
Good reminders, Quix. Many thanks to you.
Yes it does. St. Peter writes, "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies [αἱρέσεις ἀπωλείας]" (2 Pet 2:1)
And St. Paul tells us that those who practice "heresies" [αἱρέσεις] "shall not inherit the kingdom of God". (Gal 5:20-21)
If it didn't matter what any of us think, then there would be no such thing as "damnable heresies". But since there are "damnable heresies", i.e. heresies that can damn one's soul and keep one from inheriting the kingdom of God, therefore it does matter what we think; our eternal destiny hangs on it.
-A8
Just yesterday I was listening to a song on this very subject: Disc 2, Track 6! (; (The closing lyrics are the most important!)
kosta, I have appreciated your arguments on this thread, though I don't often participate. I read every comment in my inbox. Indeed, God IS Love, amen, amen, amen. This love is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit Alone (Romans 5:5), and where love is, there is God (1 John 4:16).
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