Hmmm, created in the image and likness....a backseat driver. You are outdoing yourself, FK. :)
The interpretation that is MOST consistent with the latter clearer understanding is that God always gets what He wants
FK, God is Love and Love only gives. He needs nothing. To imply that God "wants" means that He is subject to passions created out of needs, as we have passions based on needs.
He simply gives us blessings and a chance to be saved. And when we fail, He gives us more. There is nothing God "wants" from us that He can get.
We have a rational, omnipotent Being
Rational? Rational as in "My throught are not your thoughts?" Whose reason are you referring to? Ours or His? And it if is His, is it something we can comprehend? Or are we stuffing Infinite God to our finite logical box?
God did not cause Adam to sin, but ultimately, it is clearly what He wanted, under my theology
Unfortunately, that much is clear. I do credit you for the courage to admit that in your theology God ultimately created Adam so tha he would fail.
How do you answer people when they ask you why God allows so much suffering in the world if He is a loving God?
Since free will is not in your theology it is a pointless question.
You are also correct that I believe that God created them that way, with that specific predestination. I realize this is a difficult thing for very many people to agree with. However, the ultimate responsibility still lies with the individual
And "we" (Orthodox and Catholics) are turning God into "God Emeritus!?!" Look how He is suddenly no longer "sovereign" in youre theology, but the ultimate [sic]responsibility lies with man (although GOD is always in CHARGE and GOD predestined him to fail!).
In addition, we are specifically told that God hated Esau, and from that we can extrapolate that He also hated Judas, and others
LOL!! Did God not create Esau and predistined him to sell his birthright? Did God not create Him knowing that he would do just that? Did Esau have a choice? How can he hate Esau, FK when He made it to be what He made him?
According to your theology God crerated Esau in order to hate him!
In your theology Judas is an obeident servant who does the dirty work and then gets cast into hell for his obedience!?!
So, then, Pontius Pilate and Caiaphas were really doing God's work too. Irresitably, yet the ULITMATE responsibility was theirs...ant not of their Maker.
In your theology God is not Love; He is only a god who loves some.
Just yesterday I was listening to a song on this very subject: Disc 2, Track 6! (; (The closing lyrics are the most important!)
kosta, I have appreciated your arguments on this thread, though I don't often participate. I read every comment in my inbox. Indeed, God IS Love, amen, amen, amen. This love is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit Alone (Romans 5:5), and where love is, there is God (1 John 4:16).
Lots of good wisdom in your post.
Thanks.
To imply otherwise means that God makes no choices, and we clearly know that He does.
There is nothing God "wants" from us that He can get.
The Bible tells us that God wants plenty from us, He wants us to love Him, He wants us to obey Him, He wants us to teach our children, and on and on and on. Because He is omnipotent He causes all of these good things to happen and He gets what He wants. We humans want things we can't have. That doesn't apply to God.
Rational? Rational as in "My thoughts are not your thoughts?" Whose reason are you referring to? Ours or His? And it if is His, is it something we can comprehend? Or are we stuffing Infinite God to our finite logical box?
God defines what rational is, so He is the standard. God gave us some ability to use reason when He created us, but of course we fall short of His use so our thoughts are different. If God was not rational, then He would be random and purposeless.
I do credit you for the courage to admit that in your theology God ultimately created Adam so that he would fail.
I wouldn't say that's why He created Adam, but I would say the Fall was part of God's plan, and did not happen by accident.
Did God not create Esau and predestined him to sell his birthright? Did God not create Him knowing that he would do just that? Did Esau have a choice? How can he hate Esau, FK when He made it to be what He made him?
The Bible specifically tells us that God predestined that Esau would sell his birthright, and so obviously God knew. Esau had the same choices that all lost sinners have, but among those is not the choice to do good in God's eyes. God can hate Esau because he was not one of God's children. God only loves His own. He had no duty to create Esau as one of His children. God made a sovereign choice for His own reasons.
According to your theology God created Esau in order to hate him!
No, that was not the reason for creating. The reason God made Esau was to use him in the furtherance of God's plan. It is the same reason God made Pharaoh, Judas, and all the rest. God hating them is a consequence of their purpose, not a purpose itself for creating them.
In your theology Judas is an obedient servant who does the dirty work and then gets cast into hell for his obedience!?!
Judas, and the rest did not do what they did out of obedience to God, so they do not get credit for being obedient. God used them by removing Himself from them to that degree necessary to guarantee that His plan would be accomplished exactly as designed.
In your theology God is not Love; He is only a god who loves some.
LOL! And in your theology God loves the vast majority of people so much that He stands aside and does nothing to protect them while they hurl themselves off a cliff to their doom. Some love. If I treated my own children the same way your God treats His, I would be put in prison. :)