Posted on 12/04/2006 10:22:38 AM PST by SirLinksalot
Show me where the name "Yahweh" appears in ancient Pagan texts. [...] This just further proves my point. El, allah, Eloah, Eloi, Elohim are GENERIC names for deity. Just like the word "god". It's clear from your own source that El refers to a specific Levantine god of rain and the sky. There was no use of "YHVH" before Moses, chronologically as well as in the text. Are you claiming that Moses worshiped a different god than Adam, Abraham, and Isaac? Or that YHVH and the Creator of the Universe are not the same?
If you can't see what I'm getting at with this point (that the name Yahweh appears no where in islamic holy texts) then I can't help you. The name "allah" does not (and has never) = "Yahweh". EVER.It has never been translated into arabic despite the fact that other semitic peoples (Assyrians and Chaldeans) have translated "Yahweh" as "Mariah" both meaning "Lord"
"Yahweh" does not mean "Lord". I could "translate" your name into something with a different pronunciation and meaning, but that's not the point of translation.
And you have yet to show me how the word "allah" in arabic relates in any way to the word "Yahweh".
For the second (or is it third) time, both "Allah" and "YHVH" are the written forms used to refer to God.
It's just that muslims do it far less pleasantly.
I really don't.
And in the Syriac bibles it's found all over the Torah too, but TRANSLATED INTO SYRIAC as "Mariah".
How can "Mariah" be a translation of "YHVH" but "Allah" can't? It's not as if Mariah (Syriac: "Lord") means the same as "YHVH" (Hebrew: "I am that I am"), so why exclude "Allah"?
A feat muhammed, his followers, and his demon never managed to accomplish.
Oh. Because you're a religious bigot, that's why.
1) Then I can't help you. Sorry.
2) Are you serious? Let me repeat this SLOWLY. Mariah is the Syriac translation of the word Yahweh. Do you understand that? allah can't be an arabic translation of the word "Yahweh" because allah is a translation of "Eloah". Both come from the same root word "il"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah#Etymology
3) I'm a proud religious bigot when it comes to pislam.
1) No I'm claiming when Abraham and others were using the words "el, elohim, eloah, etc..." they were using generic names that refered to deity. I've already given the example of the Hindu and Christian thanking "God" both may use the word "God" but they are referring to totally different beings.
2) Yes my bad "Yahweh" does not mean "Lord", I was confusing it with the word "Adonai".
3) So by your definition : Odin, Zeus, Krishna, Brahman, are written forms used to refer to God. But these Gods are not Yahweh and that's my whole point.
Let me repeat this: "Yahweh" is a proper noun that is a Roman alphabet rendering of the Tetragrammaton, YHVH. "Mariah" is not a translation of it any more than "Señor" is a translation of "John". They are different words.
The Tetragrammaton itself refers to God's response when Moses asks for His Name: "I am that I am". This does not mean "Lord". It is not a translation.
So they weren't praying to the God of Moses?
2) Yes my bad "Yahweh" does not mean "Lord", I was confusing it with the word "Adonai".
So the Syriac "translation" argument crumbles.
So by your definition : Odin, Zeus, Krishna, Brahman, are written forms used to refer to God.
No, Odin, Zeus, Krishna, etc. are understood as being members of different pantheons. They are not God as understood by Jews, Samaritans, Christians, Muslims and Baha'i. They are not the sole and universal God.
But these Gods are not Yahweh and that's my whole point.
So you're a pantheist who believes that there are many gods. This contradicts the basic tenet of monotheism: that there is only one God.
Oh yes it is. Mariah (or Maryah) is the Aramaic (and Syriac) translation of Yahweh.
http://www.studylight.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2423
"
Not only that, but in the Peshitta, Yeshoo (Yeshua/Jesus) is called MarYah somewhere around 32 times. The Peshitta leaves no doubt that Yeshua was Elohim (Alaha) manifest in the flesh. MarYah literally means Mar (Lord) Yah (shortened version of YHWH, or Yahweh). It is a compound word, Lord Yah. Yah is the accepted Aramaic shortening of Yahweh."
Islam has nothing remotely similar to this.
I know "Yahweh" doesn't mean "Lord" I said I confused it wity "Adonai" earlier.
1) Yes they were, using generic names for god available at the time. Just like when Christians pray to "God".
2) No the syriac/aramaic translation does't crumble, I linked to it above.
3) I'm sure followers of those pantheons would disagree with you. Brahaman is believed by the Hindus' to be the universal god. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman
Odinists and Neo-Pagans, I'm thinking, have similar beliefs.
A two-year-old comment on an internet discussion board is hardly ironclad proof. It is an opinion or interpretation written by an anonymous or semi-anonymous poster.
Surprisingly, I am not qualified to comment on the intricacies of Syriac lexical morphology. Suffice it to say that if the internet comment you cite is accurate, it is clear that "Lord Yah" is not the same as "I am that I am". It is a title (denoted by "Mar") and not the statement that God made on Sinai.
Islam has nothing remotely similar to this.
Apparently, only the Syriac scriptures do. Are all other Christian denominations heretical?
So when Muslims pray to God, it's the same thing.
'm sure followers of those pantheons would disagree with you. Brahaman is believed by the Hindus' to be the universal god.
Monotheism means that there is one and only one universal God. Such is not the case with Hindu and Norse pantheons, which have many gods.
alright n00b, it's dinnertime for me. thanks for the interesting commentary on the syriac church.
More here :
http://cachicas.7host.com/shmaisrael/english/aramaic.htm
Maryah/(Mariah) Aramic/(Syriac) = Yahweh
I'm with you - I just posted that link myself, before I read down the thread to yours.
Excellent way to put it.
Allow me to present to you how I view the issue of how Jews and Muslims view God as opposed to Christians.
Firstly, it is possible to know the IDENTITY of a person, yet, be wrong about the person's attributes.
For instance, there are people who believe that George W. Bush is a sincere and honest, albeit a flawed president. There are others ( like Moveon.org or Michael Moore ) who believe that Bush is the second coming of Hitler himself.
It would be foolish to say that these people ( those who like Bush and those who hate Bush ) are speaking of two different persons. NO. They IDENTIFY the correct person, however they do not view him the same way. OBVIOUSLY, those closest to Bush know him the best.
In the same way, it is INACCURATE to say that Muslims, Jews and Christians worship different gods simply because their conception of God is different.
For instance, Jews do not believe that God can be incarnate, while Christians believe He can and DID become incarnate.
THEY CANNOT BOTH BE RIGHT ABOUT GOD. However, it would be foolish to say that Christians do not worship YHWH as the Jews do. The difference is in HOW THEY VIEW YHWH's attribute and self-revelation.
Just as people can IDENTIFY the real Bush and can be wrong ABOUT who Bush really is, as a Christian, I can say that Jews IDENTIFY God correctly and worship Him, but worship Him IN ERROR BY DENYING HIS REVELATION OF HIMSELF ( only accepting PART of His revelation, not the whole ).
This brings me to my next point ---- WHOSE WORSHIP DOES GOD ACCEPT ?
If Jesus is correct, we must worship God IN SPIRIT *AND* IN TRUTH.
Consider Cain and Abel. BOTH WORSHIPPED THE ONE TRUE GOD ( just as Christians, Jews and Muslims do ). However, GOD ACCEPTED ABEL's WORSHIP AS BOTH SPIRITUAL AND TRUTHFUL and *REJECTED* Cain's worship and offering.
The lesson is this -- YOU WORSHIP GOD ON HIS TERMS, NOT ON YOURS. If you are wrong in your understanding of GOD's ATTRIBUTES and GOD's REVELATION, then you cannot worsip Him in truth.
IN THIS SENSE, IF JESUS IS INDEED THE SON OF GOD, THE WORD MDE FLESH... The Jews and Muslims unfortunately, like Cain, are worshipping God in a manner that is NOT ACCEPTABLE TO HIM.
They IDENTIFY THE CORRECT PERSON, BUT MISUNDERSTAND THIS PERSON's ATTRIBUTES AND REVELATION.
*THAT* is the main difference I see with Christians, Jews and Muslims.
Jesus is the perfect sacrifice prefigured in the Passover. There were four cups in the ritual. The third was the Todah (thanksgiving or Eucharista in Greek) offering of bread and wine. Jesus gave us His Body and His Blood as the passover lamb. In Jewish tradition, in the days of the Messiah, only the Todah offering would continue... and it does at every celebration of the Eucharist.
The fourth cup is the cup of consummation. Jesus, acting as priest and sacrifice on the cross completed the passover sacrifice with the drinking from the sponge. He then said, "It is finished." and gave up His Spirit in death.
John 19:30 Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, " It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His Spirit.
It is no more complicated than what is written in the text of Scripture. Your theologian went through some amazing theological gymnastics to avoid the 2,000 year old Catholic understanding... because obviously anything the Catholics believe must be wrong...
The Jews worship the God depicted in the same scriptures that Jesus himself read and interpreted. The New Testament is commentary on ther Torah, a prefection of it. The Koran is supposed to replace both and to give a picture of God that is at odds with both. Mormonism is somewhat like this, but gives much greater importance to Jesus.
The Catholic Catechism says, in effect, that we Christians now recognize Jesus as Lord; Jews will not until he comes again. Family reunion.
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