Posted on 11/13/2006 11:01:10 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg
If salvation is all of grace -- if God is God and he has chosen us for salvation even though we did nothing to deserve it -- then we ought to live by the grace we have received. Of course, some of you will look at that and say to yourselves, “Yeah, I really need to do better at living by grace. I’ve really been a failure there. I hope God will forgive me again.” If that’s you, you still don’t get it. Go back and re-read the last seventeen pages and (if you’re a believer) remember that you’re one of the elect!
Our hearts so quickly try to relate to God on a works-basis! It’s our pride, really. I’m convinced that that’s the problem with free-will Arminianism. People naturally process it like this: God requires one work from me, to believe. Once I believe, I’ve done my work and deserve heaven. Of course, in more hard-line Arminian circles, it goes a step further. Unless I’m holy enough, I’ll still go to hell, and maybe I’ve even committed the unpardonable sin and will be damned even if I’m sinlessly perfect from here on out. Legalism. Legalism. Legalism. Such a religion is barely recognizable as Christianity.
But Calvinists can fall into legalism just as easily. You see, I understand predestination. I’m a superior Christian. I’ve got all my theological “t”s crossed and my Reformed “i”s dotted. I sure am close to God. Pride is the Presbyterian’s favorite form of legalism, so watch out! But if God really is for us, and if we had nothing to do with that decision -- if even our faith was given to us by the Father -- then there’s no room for boasting. God’s sovereign choice of us leaves us free from pride. It leaves us aware of our brokenness and humble before God, but all the while confident that his eternal purpose will stand, that we will glory in God forever as objects of his saving mercy. As God’s eternal blessing really begins to sink from our heads into our hearts, we see a new freedom that we never would have imagined when we first encountered the raw, holy, sovereign power of God. Among the newfound freedoms:
1. Freedom from shame, guilt & Insecurity
Read Romans 8:28-39. Nothing can separate you from God’s love -- nothing in the past, nothing in the future. No one can stand against you. No one can accuse you. Even bad things (“all things”) are working right now to your benefit, to make you more like Jesus. God didn’t choose you because of your faith, and Jesus is not ashamed of you—even at your worst (Hebrews 2:11). He’s proud to have you in the family, proud to call you brother or sister -- even knowing what he knows. He’s displaying the glory of his mercy, remember. God’s law is no longer your enemy, but a friend. You can have confidence before God.
2. Freedom from destructive Perfectionism
If God really is for you, then you can quit trying to look good. If you’re trying to be good enough for God, he’s not buying it -- he didn’t choose you because of your great faithfulness. If you’re trying to be good enough for other people, don’t bother. God wants to display his mercy -- that means we have to be broken. God’s glory is not displayed by trying to look like you have it all together. Faith is not a work, and even if it were it still wouldn’t earn you any brownie points. Let God be God. If you won’t show your weakness, then others won’t see God’s power displayed in it.
3. Freedom from legalistic man-made rules
Some of the biggest practical opponents to living by grace are those legalistic little rules that we live by. We love to judge other with them -- they make us look good, and help us feel better about ourselves. (Pride again.) Dress this way, not that way. Wear this much makeup, not that much. Work. Don’t work. Home school is God’s way. Public school is God’s way. Christian school is God’s way. Drink. Don’t drink. Smoke. Don’t smoke. Dance. Don’t dance. This is God’s worship style. If we’re all about God’s glory, there’s no room for any of this. Do whatever you do for God’s glory without comparisons. God has freed you from judging others. You don’t understand God’ sovereign grace until you realize you are a beggar who’s been blessed without cause. You had nothing to do with it -- you’re just a receiver.
4. Freedom from Penance
Even repentance can be a sham if we’re trying to approach God with some vestige of self-reliance. Biblical repentance is a freedom we can enjoy daily, while penance is its counterfeit.
Repentance/Penance
Comes with empty hands/Tries to bargain with God
Acknowledges real sin as against God/Makes excuses for sin
Grieves over displeasing God/Grieves over getting caught
Asks for help to do better/Promises to do better
Is willing to publicly confess, if needed/Is too proud to publicly confess
Relies on God's promises to us/Relies on own promises to God
Turns outward, away from self, to God/Turns inward on self
Produces freedom, joy, and confidence/Produces guilty feelings, anxiety
God has obligated himself to receive any repentant sinner who comes to him. Without this realization, true repentance is impossible. Until we realize that God is for us, we cannot truly be for God.
(1) One can know with certainty that one is elect only if one knows with certainty that one has persevering faith.
(2) One can know with certainty that one has persevering faith only if one perseveres till death.
(3) One can know with certainty that one perseveres till death only at and after death.
Therefore,
(4) One can know with certainty that one is elect only at or after death.
The argument is valid (i.e. the conclusion follows from the premises). So, if you reject the conclusion, then which of the three premises is false, and why?
-A8
In order to answer that question, we would have to know that we are a "son of God". And that is precisely the point in question.
-A8
Notice how you moved away from whether we can "know with certainty" to whether we can "emphatically state". Anybody can state anything. That's easy. It is quite another thing to know the future with certainty.
-A8
No, your theology does that; the logic is a *direct* entailment of your claim in #88 that "of course [the assurance verses] don't apply to those who will fall away".
(1) The 'assurance verses' don't apply to apostates-to-be.
Therefore,
(2) One has to know whether or not one is an apostate-to-be in order to know whether the 'assurance verses' apply to oneself.
Don't like that conclusion? Then you have to give up the premise, or give up logic and embrace contradictions in your theology.
-A8
Then I suppose you'd have to process the information the Holy Spirit is giving you considering your current condition. If you have doubts of your relationship, there's trouble.
How do you know that the voice you heard was "his voice"? Now it feels like I'm talking to a Mormon, not a Calvinist. Look how sola scriptura decays into pure gnosticism of the Benny Hinn sort.
-A8
These are statements about me, not about theology.
-A8
Sorry, but that's an a fortiori comparison, exactly as Matthew 7:9-11 is, not a contrast.
My FRiend, it's not a matter of knowing the future with any certainty - it's a matter of trusting one's "certainty" to the One who governs the future.
Later...
That conclusion does not follow from that premise. Just because the apostate-to-be was not given *true faith* does not mean that his 'conversion' could not have been like yours. It could have been like yours in many ways.
I cannot compare my faith with that of another individual, but I can reason that the faith of a lost person is not the same as that of a saved person.
Indeed, but that doesn't help you determine that you are elect, because you cannot determine with certainty now whether your faith is of the sort that the apostate-to-be have or the sort that the elect have.
Another point is that just as I cannot prove to you for certain that I am saved, neither can you prove to me that someone you know is an apostate who will wind up in hell.
I am not trying to prove the latter. I'm simply showing that there is no way for us to know now with certainty that we are elect.
I can say that my faith from God tells me that I can be assured of my salvation
How does your "faith" tell you things?
in addition to what the Bible says
But according to the Calvinst, the Bible's assurance verses only apply to you if you are elect, and so unless you already know you are elect, you cannot appeal to the assurance verses to show that you are elect.
God has given me specific sets of ears and eyes to hear and see His word in the way I do now. Those ears and eyes tell me that God's word specifically says, without reservation, that He wants only the best for His children and part of that best is the freedom to have assurance and confidence in Him and His promises as He makes them in scripture.
Right. But unless you already know that you are elect, you cannot draw any comfort from knowing God's promises concerning the elect.
Now, I do not say this "as opposed" to you. :) Your faith is at its own level, whatever it is, and tells you that there are three pillars of authority, etc., and that one may not have assurance. In no way does this make you less Christian and I do not assert myself to any "higher" level than you or anyone else. Our respective faiths are currently where they are because that's exactly where God wants them to be. They will also be where God wants them to be 10 years from now, wherever that is.
I appreciate your comments in this paragraph. Thank you.
How does excommunication fit into this? I would imagine that over time many have been thrown out over a single event or a single belief, but the person himself still believes in the Church. Is being involuntarily thrown out the same as "refusing"?
As far as I understand, one is not excommunicated without voluntarily refusing to obey or submit in some important respect. In other words, a person has to rebel knowingly against the Church in order to be excommunicated. So although one may wish not to be excommunicated (and in that sense one's excommunication is involuntary), yet in order to be excommunicated one must voluntarily rebel against and reject some essential Church doctrine or principal authority. I don't know enough about canon law to give your question a proper answer. I'm cc'ing Campion because he knows this better than I do, and can give you a better answer.
-A8
I do not know what "trusting one's certainty" means. I don't trust my certainty; and if someone commanded me to trust my certainty, I would have no idea what to do or how to do it.
-A8
That is a non sequitur. The fact that some persons can "attest with absolute conviction" that they will love their children forever does not show that one can now know with certainty that one will persevere in faith until death. Anyone can "attest" anything; that gives us no grounds for knowing whether our faith will endure.
It is deeply ironic, however, that Calvinists are basing their assurance of salvation on their confidence in their own will-power to keep loving their children until death. "I know that I will persevere in faith, because I know my own determination and commitment to love my children forever, and therefore, I know my own determination and commitment to stick with Christ till the bitter end." Gone is all that typical Reformed talk about "total depravity" and "Christ alone". Now our assurance is based on confidence in self.
-A8
The truth that "His sheep know His voice" does not help us here, because we are trying to determine whether we are His sheep (i.e. elect). So we can't use "the hearing of a voice" to determine that we are His sheep. That would just beg the question, i.e. assume already that we are His sheep.
-A8
A8, it is difficult to respond to you without crossing religion forum etiquette lines, lines which you appear to cross with statements like the one above.
Suffice it to say I am pleased you're taking so much time to study Reformed theology. It will surely do you good.
May I call you Shirley?
Well thank you. At the party, you get dibs on the chili. :)
Now that you mention it, it really does. :)
No. "A8" is fine.
-A8
I may have missed your answer, but I'm still wondering if you have any children since you stated only God knows whether or not you will always love them.
I apologize for the possibly inappropriate break in your reasoning, but I have to finally post this:
Fascinating exchange. Thank you for posting this series.
Since leaving the Arminian and Dispensational frenzy years ago, I have been fascinated with the question of how I got there in the first place.
Keep posting.
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