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Peter & Succession (Understanding the Church Today)
Ignatius Insight ^ | 2005 | Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

Posted on 10/21/2006 4:52:03 AM PDT by NYer

From Called To Communion: Understanding the Church Today

Editor's note: This is the second half of a chapter titled "The Primacy of Peter and Unity of the Church." The first half examines the status of Peter in the New Testament and the commission logion contained in Matthew 16:17-19.

The principle of succession in general

That the primacy of Peter is recognizable in all the major strands of the New Testament is incontestable.

The real difficulty arises when we come to the second question: Can the idea of a Petrine succession be justified? Even more difficult is the third question that is bound up with it: Can the Petrine succession of Rome be credibly substantiated?

Concerning the first question, we must first of all note that there is no explicit statement regarding the Petrine succession in the New Testament. This is not surprising, since neither the Gospels nor the chief Pauline epistles address the problem of a postapostolic Church—which, by the way, must be mentioned as a sign of the Gospels' fidelity to tradition. Indirectly, however, this problem can be detected in the Gospels once we admit the principle of form critical method according to which only what was considered in the respective spheres of tradition as somehow meaningful for the present was preserved in writing as such. This would mean, for example, that toward the end of the first century, when Peter was long dead, John regarded the former's primacy, not as a thing of the past, but as a present reality for the Church.


For many even believe—though perhaps with a little too much imagination—that they have good grounds for interpreting the "competition" between Peter and the beloved disciple as an echo of the tensions between Rome's claim to primacy and the sense of dignity possessed by the Churches of Asia Minor. This would certainly be a very early and, in addition, inner-biblical proof that Rome was seen as continuing the Petrine line; but we should in no case rely on such uncertain hypotheses. The fundamental idea, however, does seem to me correct, namely, that the traditions of the New Testament never reflect an interest of purely historical curiosity but are bearers of present reality and in that sense constantly rescue things from the mere past, without blurring the special status of the origin.

Moreover, even scholars who deny the principle itself have propounded hypotheses of succession. 0. Cullmann, for example, objects in a very clear-cut fashion to the idea of succession, yet he believes that he can Show that Peter was replaced by James and that this latter assumed the primacy of the erstwhile first apostle. Bultmann believes that he is correct in concluding from the mention of the three pillars in Galatians 2:9 that the course of development led away from a personal to a collegial leadership and that a college entered upon the succession of Peter. [1]

We have no need to discuss these hypotheses and others like them; their foundation is weak enough. Nevertheless, they do show that it is impossible to avoid the idea of succession once the word transmitted in Scripture is considered to be a sphere open to the future. In those writings of the New Testament that stand on the cusp of the second generation or else already belong to it-especially in the Acts of the Apostles and in the Pastoral Letters—the principle of succession does in fact take on concrete shape.

The Protestant notion that the "succession" consists solely in the word as such, but not in any "structures", is proved to be anachronistic in light of what in actual fact is the form of tradition in the New Testament. The word is tied to the witness, who guarantees it an unambiguous sense, which it does not possess as a mere word floating in isolation. But the witness is not an individual who stands independently on his own. He is no more a wit ness by virtue of himself and of his own powers of memory than Peter can be the rock by his own strength. He is not a witness as "flesh and blood" but as one who is linked to the Pneuma, the Paraclete who authenticates the truth and opens up the memory and, in his turn, binds the witness to Christ. For the Paraclete does not speak of himself, but he takes from "what is his" (that is, from what is Christ's: Jn 16: 13).

This binding of the witness to the Pneuma and to his mode of being-"not of himself, but what he hears" -is called "sacrament" in the language of the Church. Sacrament designates a threefold knot-word, witness, Holy Spirit and Christ-which describes the essential structure of succession in the New Testament. We can infer with certainty from the testimony of the Pastoral Letters and of the Acts of the Apostles that the apostolic generation already gave to this interconnection of person and word in the believed presence of the Spirit and of Christ the form of the laying on of hands.

The Petrine succession in Rome

In opposition to the New Testament pattern of succession described above, which withdraws the word from human manipulation precisely by binding witnesses into its service, there arose very early on an intellectual and anti-institutional model known historically by the name of Gnosis, which made the free interpretation and speculative development of the word its principle. Before long the appeal to individual witnesses no longer sufficed to counter the intellectual claim advanced by this tendency. It became necessary to have fixed points by which to orient the testimony itself, and these were found in the so-called apostolic sees, that is, in those where the apostles had been active. The apostolic sees became the reference point of true communio. But among these sees there was in turn–quite clearly in Irenaeus of Lyons–a decisive criterion that recapitulated all others: the Church of Rome, where Peter and Paul suffered martyrdom. It was with this Church that every community had to agree; Rome was the standard of the authentic apostolic tradition as a whole.

Moreover, Eusebius of Caesarea organized the first version of his ecclesiastical history in accord with the same principle. It was to be a written record of the continuity of apostolic succession, which was concentrated in the three Petrine sees Rome, Antioch and Alexandria-among which Rome, as the site of Peter's martyrdom, was in turn preeminent and truly normative. [2]

This leads us to a very fundamental observation. [3] The Roman primacy, or, rather, the acknowledgement of Rome as the criterion of the right apostolic faith, is older than the canon of the New Testament, than "Scripture".

We must be on our guard here against an almost inevitable illusion. "Scripture" is more recent than "the scriptures" of which it is composed. It was still a long time before the existence of the individual writings resulted in the "New Testament" as Scripture, as the Bible. The assembling of the writings into a single Scripture is more properly speaking the work of tradition, a work that began in the second century but came to a kind of conclusion only in the fourth or fifth century. Harnack, a witness who cannot be suspected of pro-Roman bias, has remarked in this regard that it was only at the end of the second century, in Rome, that a canon of the "books of the New Testament" won recognition by the criterion of apostolicity-catholicity, a criterion to which the other Churches also gradually subscribed "for the sake of its intrinsic value and on the strength of the authority of the Roman Church".

We can therefore say that Scripture became Scripture through the tradition, which precisely in this process included the potentior principalitas–the preeminent original authority–of the Roman see as a constitutive element.

Two points emerge clearly from what has just been First, the principle of tradition in its sacramental form-apostolic succession—played a constitutive role in the existence and continuance of the Church. Without this principle, it is impossible to conceive of a New Testament at all, so that we are caught in a contradiction when we affirm the one while wanting to deny the other. Furthermore, we have seen that in Rome the traditional series of bishops was from the very beginning recorded as a line of successors.

We can add that Rome and Antioch were conscious of succeeding to the mission of Peter and that early on Alexandria was admitted into the circle of Petrine sees as the city where Peter's disciple Mark had been active. Having said all that, the site of Peter's martyrdom nonetheless appears clearly as the chief bearer of his supreme authority and plays a preeminent role in the formation of tradition which is constitutive of the Church-and thus in the genesis of the New Testament as Bible; Rome is one of the indispensable internal and external- conditions of its possibility. It would be exciting to trace the influence on this process of the idea that the mission of Jerusalem had passed over to Rome, which explains why at first Jerusalem was not only not a "patriarchal see" but not even a metropolis: Jerusalem was now located in Rome, and since Peter's departure from that city, its primacy had been transferred to the capital of the pagan world. [4]

But to consider this in detail would lead us too far afield for the moment. The essential point, in my opinion, has already become plain: the martyrdom of Peter in Rome fixes the place where his function continues. The awareness of this fact can be detected as early as the first century in the Letter of Clement, even though it developed but slowly in all its particulars.

Concluding reflections

We shall break off at this point, for the chief goal of our considerations has been attained. We have seen that the New Testament as a whole strikingly demonstrates the primacy of Peter; we have seen that the formative development of tradition and of the Church supposed the continuation of Peter's authority in Rome as an intrinsic condition. The Roman primacy is not an invention of the popes, but an essential element of ecclesial unity that goes back to the Lord and was developed faithfully in the nascent Church.

But the New Testament shows us more than the formal aspect of a structure; it also reveals to us the inward nature of this structure. It does not merely furnish proof texts, it is a permanent criterion and task. It depicts the tension between skandalon and rock; in the very disproportion between man's capacity and God's sovereign disposition, it reveals God to be the one who truly acts and is present.

If in the course of history the attribution of such authority to men could repeatedly engender the not entirely unfounded suspicion of human arrogation of power, not only the promise of the New Testament but also the trajectory of that history itself prove the opposite. The men in question are so glaringly, so blatantly unequal to this function that the very empowerment of man to be the rock makes evident how little it is they who sustain the Church but God alone who does so, who does so more in spite of men than through them.

The mystery of the Cross is perhaps nowhere so palpably present as in the primacy as a reality of Church history. That its center is forgiveness is both its intrinsic condition and the sign of the distinctive character of God's power. Every single biblical logion about the primacy thus remains from generation to generation a signpost and a norm, to which we must ceaselessly resubmit ourselves. When the Church adheres to these words in faith, she is not being triumphalistic but humbly recognizing in wonder and thanksgiving the victory of God over and through human weakness. Whoever deprives these words of their force for fear of triumphalism or of human usurpation of authority does not proclaim that God is greater but diminishes him, since God demonstrates the power of his love, and thus remains faithful to the law of the history of salvation, precisely in the paradox of human impotence.

For with the same realism with which we declare today the sins of the popes and their disproportion to the magnitude of their commission, we must also acknowledge that Peter has repeatedly stood as the rock against ideologies, against the dissolution of the word into the plausibilities of a given time, against subjection to the powers of this world.

When we see this in the facts of history, we are not celebrating men but praising the Lord, who does not abandon the Church and who desired to manifest that he is the rock through Peter, the little stumbling stone: "flesh and blood" do not save, but the Lord saves through those who are of flesh and blood. To deny this truth is not a plus of faith, not a plus of humility, but is to shrink from the humility that recognizes God as he is. Therefore the Petrine promise and its historical embodiment in Rome remain at the deepest level an ever-renewed motive for joy: the powers of hell will not prevail against it . . .


Endnotes:

[1] Die Geschichte der synoptischen Tradition, 2d ed. (198 1), 147- 51; cf. Gnilka, 56.

[2] For an exhaustive account of this point, see V. Twomey, Apostolikos Thronos (Münster, 1982).

[3] It is my hope that in the not-too-distant future I will have the opportunity to develop and substantiate in greater detail the view of the succession that I attempt to indicate in an extremely condensed form in what follows. I owe important suggestions to several works by 0. Karrer, especially: Um die Einheit der Christen. Die Petrusfrage (Frankfurt am Mainz, 1953); "Apostolische Nachfolge und Primat", in: Feiner, Trütsch and Böckle, Fragen in der Theologie heute (Freiburg im.Breisgau, 1957), 175-206; "Das Petrusamt in der Frühkirche", in Festgabe J. Lortz (Baden-Baden, 1958), 507-25; "Die biblische und altkirchliche Grundlage des Papsttums", in: Lebendiges Zeugnis (1958), 3-24. Also of importance are some of the papers in the festschrift for 0. Karrer: Begegnung der Christen, ed. by Roesle-Cullmann (Frankfurt am Mainz, 1959); in particular, K. Hofstetter, "Das Petrusamt in der Kirche des I. und 2. Jahrhunderts", 361-72.

[4] Cf. Hofstetter.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History
KEYWORDS: catholic; petrinesuccession; primacyofpeter
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To: Diego1618
and at the end not only has he ever mentioned Peter,

The summary should say "never mentioned....not ever mentioned.

1,621 posted on 10/26/2006 4:26:09 PM PDT by Diego1618
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To: DouglasKC

Thank you, Douglas.


1,622 posted on 10/26/2006 4:29:57 PM PDT by Diego1618
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To: adiaireton8
If within Protestantism there is no "private interpretation", but only Scripture interpreting Scripture, then why are there 20,000+ contrary interpretations of Scripture within Protestantism? -A8

I am no expert, but I do think a lot of what you are calling contrary interpretations are actually doctrines of men. Many denominations have their own traditions that are handed down. Doesn't mean that someone actually is really searching scripture, which I do believe interprets itself. This has been my experience in various Churches anyway.

1,623 posted on 10/26/2006 4:30:58 PM PDT by ladyinred (RIP my precious Lamb Chop)
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To: Quix; adiaireton8
It sounds or feels like there's been no change in the understanding of the hearer about what I was trying to say.

Who better to hear you, than someone who has been where you are?! adiaireton8 is a lifelong Protestant who recently converted to the Catholic Church. This is not something one does on a whim. This is often a very painful process as it entails leaving friends and loved ones, behind.

Christ through His Church offers us the fruit of the tree of life through the sacraments and especially the Eucharist. But we already see the fruit of the tree of the 'knowledge' of good and evil, in the destruction of Christian unity into 20,000+ sects, with further fragmentation occuring on a daily basis, contrary to Christ's prayer in John 17 that Christians would all be "perfected in unity".

Back in 1978, a Pentecostal minister by the name of Alex Jones decided to do some research and offer his congregation a 'New Testament' worship service. They were all in favor. He turned to the Church Fathers , to understand how they worshiped the Lord in the first centuries following His death and resurrection. What he discovered, forever altered his relationship with our Lord.

To illustrate what he was talking about, in the spring of 1998 he re-enacted an early worship service, never intending to alter his congregation’s worship style. “But once I discovered the foundational truths and saw that Christianity was not the same as I was preaching, some fine-tuning needed to take place.”

The end result was this.

1,624 posted on 10/26/2006 4:33:37 PM PDT by NYer (Apart from the cross, there is no other ladder by which we may get to Heaven. St. Rose of Lima)
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To: Diego1618
"What I have posted here is Biblical.....not tradition..."
______________________________

Thank you, that's a pretty convincing argument. If Peter wasn't there and didn't start the Roman Church, why the myth. What benefit was it to the RCC to have Peter rather than Paul the Apostle that started their church?

I know it's a tough question. I've been trying to figure out when the Eucharist changed from being symbolic to transmuted substances and haven't found the answer for that.
1,625 posted on 10/26/2006 4:36:55 PM PDT by wmfights (Psalm : 27)
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To: adiaireton8

What exactly do you think it means to be "perfected in unity"?(John 17:23)
= = =

--To be CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF CHRIST and thereby become more fully each his own person.

--To be submitted to The Lordship of Jesus Christ.

--To be led by Christ's Holy Spirit in a wonderful dialogue and dance with Him.

--To Love as Jesus Loves and walk in His humility.

--To major in God's majors and minor in God's minors.


1,626 posted on 10/26/2006 4:39:26 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Alamo-Girl
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27

Thank you my dear. What you just posted says it all.

1,627 posted on 10/26/2006 4:41:27 PM PDT by ladyinred (RIP my precious Lamb Chop)
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To: adiaireton8; Quix
I hear Christ given to each person; I hear Christ giving Himself to each person; I hear the body of Christ all around me, every beautiful person of all races and ages, all joined together by that act on Calvary and in that act on Calvary, all united in our love for Christ and sharing in His act of self-giving. I have never experienced anything more spiritually edifying and upbuilding in my entire life.

Thank you for sharing your profound experience. It is reminiscent of what Dr. Scott Hahn, another convert, experienced on his first visit to a Catholic Mass.


Scott Hahn’s The Lamb's Supper - The Mass as Heaven on Earth.
Foreword by Fr. Benedict Groeschel.
Part One - The Gift of the Mass


Hahn begins by describing the first mass he ever attended.

"There I stood, a man incognito, a Protestant minister in plainclothes, slipping into the back of a Catholic chapel in Milwaukee to witness my first Mass. Curiosity had driven me there, and I still didn't feel sure that it was healthy curiosity. Studying the writings of the earliest Christians, I'd found countless references to "the liturgy," "the Eucharist," "the sacrifice." For those first Christians, the Bible - the book I loved above all - was incomprehensible apart from the event that today's Catholics called "the Mass."

"I wanted to understand the early Christians; yet I'd had no experience of liturgy. So I persuaded myself to go and see, as a sort of academic exercise, but vowing all along that I would neither kneel nor take part in idolatry."

I took my seat in the shadows, in a pew at the very back of that basement chapel. Before me were a goodly number of worshipers, men and women of all ages. Their genuflections impressed me, as did their apparent concentration in prayer. Then a bell rang, and they all stood as the priest emerged from a door beside the altar.

Unsure of myself, I remained seated. For years, as an evangelical Calvinist, I'd been trained to believe that the Mass was the ultimate sacrilege a human could commit. The Mass, I had been taught, was a ritual that purported to "resacrifice Jesus Christ." So I would remain an observer. I would stay seated, with my Bible open beside me.

As the Mass moved on, however, something hit me. My Bible wasn't just beside me. It was before me - in the words of the Mass! One line was from Isaiah, another from Psalms, another from Paul. The experience was overwhelming. I wanted to stop everything and shout, "Hey, can I explain what's happening from Scripture? This is great!" Still, I maintained my observer status. I remained on the sidelines until I heard the priest pronounce the words of consecration: "This is My body . . . This is the cup of My blood."

Then I felt all my doubt drain away. As I saw the priest raise that white host, I felt a prayer surge from my heart in a whisper: "My Lord and my God. That's really you!"

I was what you might call a basket case from that point. I couldn't imagine a greater excitement than what those words had worked upon me. Yet the experience was intensified just a moment later, when I heard the congregation recite: "Lamb of God . . . Lamb of God . . . Lamb of God," and the priest respond, "This is the Lamb of God . . ." as he raised the host. In less than a minute, the phrase "Lamb of God" had rung out four times. From long years of studying the Bible, I immediately knew where I was. I was in the Book of Revelation, where Jesus is called the Lamb no less than twenty-eight times in twenty-two chapters. I was at the marriage feast that John describes at the end of that very last book of the Bible. I was before the throne of heaven, where Jesus is hailed forever as the Lamb. I wasn't ready for this, though - I was at Mass!


So simple yet so revolutionary.

1,628 posted on 10/26/2006 4:43:11 PM PDT by NYer (Apart from the cross, there is no other ladder by which we may get to Heaven. St. Rose of Lima)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Certainly the more we listen and the more we obey, the more we hear.

But sometimes . . . God can seem to require some very persistent effort at hearing His precise word to us in a given situation well.


1,629 posted on 10/26/2006 4:43:19 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: wmfights

Jesus didn't mention any middle men who would think for us.
= = =

Excellent point.

There's a wholesale absence of such an idea in the whole of the NT.

The leaders Christ raised up . . . were to be . . . are to be . . .

SERVANTS.

Gold encrusted, lofty, pontifical servants? Doesn't compute.


1,630 posted on 10/26/2006 4:45:47 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
"...The authority (of Scripture) is found in the sovereign God Himself. The God who "breathed out" the words through human writers stands behind every statement, every doctrine, every promise and every command written in the Scripture..." It is all there. God's will is not so difficult to discern that we need massive overlays of men and magisteriums to interpret it and dispense it, as if it could be bartered away for a price.

Oh my, you said that so much better than I tried to! :-) That is why I mostly sit back back, read, and let the rest of you handle these things! Well done!

1,631 posted on 10/26/2006 4:47:45 PM PDT by ladyinred (RIP my precious Lamb Chop)
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To: adiaireton8

So why all the Protestant sects? It is the big elephant in the room that you are denying when you state that we don't need any men or magesterium to interpret it.
= = =

Perhaps the Romans hand out PhD's in sounding like broken records?

No big elephant. The notion is nonsense. The notion is unBiblical. The notion is hollow, empthy, useless.

SCRIPTURE indicates that The Gospel and the truths of God are to be received, believed, trusted on and acted on as A LITTLE CHILD.

Doesn't seem to me that anywhere in the NT is there an expectation that individual sheep are to be considered incapable of discerning, learning, feeding on, memorizing, practicing THE WORD OF GOD except with professional assistants and those from lofty positions above them.

THAT NOTION is more from the pit of hell.


1,632 posted on 10/26/2006 4:52:24 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: 1000 silverlings

Indeed.

But if there's the notion that the 20,000 are to be slammed up against our screens with impunity and silence resulting . . . without including the Roman sect in the number . . . that notion is utter nonsense.

Shoot--within the Roman group itself, they probably would come close to that number of 'sect-like' different opinions and perspectives.

This idea that the Roman group speaks with one voice and believes one truly truest true TRUTH is utter nonsense.

A gross deception of the worst order.


1,633 posted on 10/26/2006 4:55:03 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: 1000 silverlings

and here come the lawyers, adding opinion after opinion, until you get massive texts of legalese in which no one can make sense, then here come the pharisees to not teach us anything, just lay burdens upon us (now I know you'll like this Quizx!)

= = =

Christ pegged such leaders of RELIGIONS very well.


1,634 posted on 10/26/2006 4:55:40 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Uncle Chip

You are a wonderful Dear Heart.

LUB,


1,635 posted on 10/26/2006 4:56:25 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: adiaireton8

Whatever the protestant number, I'm convinced it fits with perfected unity a LOT better than all the splinter groups still within the Roman umbrella who

have to make sound as though they are in agreement when they are often enough fiercely at each other's throats not unlike some protestant groups are.

The contention that the Roman sect is one great homogeneous, harmoneous around the Great Papa's robe hems . . . is at best a gross deception; at least a delusion or illusion and quite possibly a lie from the pit.


1,636 posted on 10/26/2006 4:58:32 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: 1000 silverlings

7- and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.

8- And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.

9- And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

= = = =

NOW, NOW! You should know better! You can't go teaching your own children about God. It's unglobalist! It's anti-Hillarian! It's proFreedom and Pro Constitution! Oh, Horrors! CALL OUT THE NEA! CALL OUT GEORGE SOROS! CALL OUT SCUBA TEDDY! CALL OUT SHRILLERY'S GOONS! We have to put a stop to this.

Oh, I know, Call the Roman hierarchy. They are getting pretty good at smothering, shredding and out right killing the truth amongst believers. They'll quiet this nonsense down and get kids back into at least the curia's indoctrination cells. Not quite as good as the secular humanist's indoctrination cells but close enough. It's all bureaucratic and being consumed by and in a big bureaucracy. That's a small enough step toward the global government. That will train them well enough in group think.


1,637 posted on 10/26/2006 5:02:07 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Uncle Chip

Wow --- How many pages? almost 3000. The Magisterium loves to multiply their own words. If only they knew how to rightly divide as well.
= = =

INDEED!


1,638 posted on 10/26/2006 5:02:44 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Diego1618

Great work.

Thanks.


1,639 posted on 10/26/2006 5:04:02 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: NYer

My suspicion is that his psychology had more to do with his changes than his research with The Fathers.

Sad he turned a whole flock back to TRADITION vs more to Christ.


1,640 posted on 10/26/2006 5:06:24 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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