Posted on 10/21/2006 4:52:03 AM PDT by NYer
-A8
Again, not what I said. Please stop misquoting me. You left out the word ALL. nobody has it ALL right.
I was referring your following statement:
No person, no church, no single interpretation is "right".
But if this statement itself is right, then there is one person who is "right", namely, you, at least on *one* point.
Anytime somebody claims that no person or church has it right, I wonder how that person can possibly know that. Did they go investigate all persons, all churches? No. Typically, it is just an expression of skepticism regarding the possibility of acquiring truth, assumed because the person him or herself does not want there to be others out there who have it right, because that would mean that he or she should be trying to acquire knowledge. It is more intellectually comforting if we tell ourselves that nobody has the truth except God.
I'm not claiming that this is where you are coming from, but I often see this attitude in my students.
-A8
It makes for short discussions.
I think Hodge covers it better than I ever could...
1st. The Scriptures do not, as claimed, ascribe authority to oral tradition. Tradition, as intended by Paul in the passage cited (2 Thess. 2:15, and 3:6), signifies all his instructions, oral and written, communicated to those very people themselves, not handed down. On the other hand, Christ rebuked this doctrine of the Romanists in their predecessors, the Pharisees, Matt. 15:3,6; Mark 7:7. 2nd. It is improbable a priori that God would supplement Scripture with tradition as part of our rule of faith. (1.) Because Scripture, as will be shown below (questions 7-14), is certain, definite, complete, and perspicuous. (2.) Because tradition, from its very nature, is indeterminate, and liable to become adulterated with every form of error. Besides, as will be shown below (question 20), the authority of Scripture does not rest ultimately upon tradition. 3rd The whole ground upon which Romanists base the authority of their traditions (viz., history and church authority) is invalid. (1.) History utterly fails them. For more than three hundred years after the apostles they have very little, and that contradictory, evidence for any one of their traditions. They are thus forced to the absurd assumption that what was taught in the fourth century was therefore taught in the third, and therefore in the first. (2.) The church is not infallible, as will be shown below (question 18). 4th. Their practice is inconsistent with their own principles. Many of the earliest and best attested traditions they do not receive. Many of their pretended traditions are recent inventions unknown to the ancients. 5th. Many of their traditions, such as relate to the priesthood, the sacrifice of the mass, etc., are plainly in direct opposition to Scripture. Yet the infallible church affirms the infallibility of Scripture. A house divided against itself cannot stand... 6. What arguments do the Scriptures themselves afford in favor of the doctrine that they are the only infallible rule of faith? 1st. The Scriptures always speak in the name of God, and command faith and obedience. 2nd. Christ and his apostles always refer to the written Scriptures, then existing, as authority, and to no other rule of faith whatsoever.--Luke 16:29; 10:26; John 5:39; Rom. 4:3;2 Tim. 3:15. 3rd. The Bereans are commended for bringing all questions, even apostolic teaching, to this test.--Acts 17:11; see also Isa. 8:16. 4th. Christ rebukes the Pharisees for adding to and perverting the Scriptures.--Matt. 15:7-9; Mark 7:5-8; see also Rev. 22:18, 19, and Deut. 4:2; 12:32; Josh. 1:7. 7. In what sense is the completeness of Scripture as a rule of faith asserted? It is not meant that the Scriptures contain every revelation which God has ever made to man, but that their contents are the only supernatural revelation that God does now make to man, and that this revelation is abundantly sufficient for man's guidance in all questions of faith, practice, and modes of worship, and excludes the necessity and the right of any human inventions. 8. How may this completeness be proved, from the design of scripture? The Scriptures profess to lead us to God. Whatever is necessary to that end they must teach us. If any supplementary rule, as tradition, is necessary to that end, they must refer us to it. "Incompleteness here would be falsehood." But while one sacred writer constantly refers us to the writings of another, not one of them ever intimates to us either the necessity or the existence of any other rule.--John 20:31; 2 Tim. 3:15-17. 4. By what arguments may the invalidity of all ecclesiastical tradition, as a part of our rule of faith and practice, be shown?
All Christianity was born at that time. Carry on!
Amen.
Well, how are we going to resolve this problem? Given that we are to strive for the unity of the Church, we cannot be content with the status quo of division in Christ's body.
-A8
Yes, I have manifest my faith by baptism performed with water by a pastor through faith in Him. (We used a hot tub/jacuzzi and I won;t go into all the side jokes about, gee, we didn;t have the heater/bublers on, etc.)
The more important baptism is of the Holy Spirit.
Yeah, but funny thing is that the church is characterized by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the filling of the Spirit. So when somebody doesn't get it,..they can't substitute or counterfeit it with anything that approaches the real thing. The 'it' to which I refer is the filling of the Holy Spirit indwelling us. If somebody else wants to pretend they have it, go ahead and let them. That's their business. There might be some issue at hand in the college of angelic heralds being demonstrably played out. Let the fool play his hand.
The only real consequence will come at the banquet feast in heaven and at the Great White Throne Judgment.
The same way our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus gave us the example. By remaining obedient to the Father through faith and allowing the Holy SPirit to do His work.
-A8
The Church plays virtually no role whatsoever in salvation. In sanctification and further works through faith in Him, we work with one another with our particular gifts from the Holy SPirit to perform good works and abide in the plan He has planned from eternity past.
-A8
Quix, it will be a day or two till I have energy & time to look at your posts, but I would like to say on your behalf that I know you to be a God-fearing man who neither adds words to God's mouth nor takes words away from His mouth.
Heavenly Father, I ask You to be with ALL of those communicating on this thread, pouring Your grace and mercy on them, shining Your light on them, banishing all darkness from their midst, removing all stonyheartedness away from their lives, showing them how to better walk according to Your ways, showing them where they're wrong, helping them to recognize and admit it when they are wrong, and helping them to love at all times.
May they all know only godly sorrow that leads to repentance and not worldly sorrow that leads to death.
Now unto You Who are able to keep them from falling, and to make them stand in Your presence, blameless and with great joy, to the only God, our Father, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be the honor and the glory, dominion, and authority, now and ever, AMEN.
I pray in the Name above all names, the Holy Name of Jesus. AMEN and AMEN.
jm
Yes, it is about Christ. However, you must listen to what it is that Christ is saying when He speaks to us through Scripture and heed His wishes.
Christ stated that the Church, not Scripture should be the final authority: "And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the Church: but if he neglect to hear the Church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican." (Matthew 18:17 ) Christ did not state to refer to or consult Scripture for disputes and correction. He said to go to the Church as It is the final authority in Christianity. In addition, St. Paul states that the Church, not Scripture is "THE pillar and ground of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15) Since the Church alone is mentioned as the pillar of truth, then It alone has the right to discern the truth and interpret Scripture. For if individuals could correctly interpret Scripture, then all interpretations would be exactly the same as there can only be one Spiritual Truth for the plural of the word "truth" never appears in Scripture. The Church is Christ's bride (Ephesians 5:29) and has "no spot, wrinkle or blemish" (Ephesians 5:27). Christ also stated that the gates of Hell will not prevail against His Church (Matthew 16:18) so how can the Church commit error? Individual clergy may commit sins, even popes commit sins because in the Church there are both "weeds and wheat" (Matthew 13:30).
Is the Church to be a loose conglomerate of believers or is it to be organized and structured? Scripture clearly established "offices" and a "hierarchy" among Christians. The offices of "bishop, priest (presbyter) and deacon" are mentioned in Scripture (1 Timothy 3:1,8; Titus 1:7 ). What else is this but "organization?" Or should we believe that any believer can "claim" to be a bishop, priest, deacon or even "apostle?" The word "office" is specifically used in Scripture (1 Timothy 3:1) to describe these positions. Webster defines "office" as "A special duty, trust, charge, or position, conferred by authority or God and for a public purpose; a position of trust or authority." And the office of "apostle" is to be continued (Acts 1:20-26) to the present day. Not all believers are "equal" nor have the same gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10; Ephesians 4:11). Is the Church a "visible, earthly" entity? Yes, for Christ would not direct us to the Church for disputes if it were not here on Earth (Matthew 18:17). Nor would "fear" encompass the whole Church if it were a mystical, invisible and heavenly entity (Acts 5:11). The Church is definitely here on earth for the actions described in Acts definitely take place on earth and the term used is "the whole Church" (Acts 15:22).
Is there to be only one Church or many? According to Scripture, Christ wanted us to be one (John 17:22-23). We are all as a Church to be of one mind and to think the same (Philippians 2:2; Romans 15:5). There is only to be one "faith" (Ephesians 4:3-6), not many. For the Church is Christ's Body and Christ only had one Body, not many. Also, since the Church is Christ's Bride (Ephesians 5:29), can Christ be married to more than one wife (essentially a spiritual form of the the sin of polygamy)? No, Christ can only have one wife (i.e., one Church, not many).
Scripture is pretty straightforward about the Church's role in salvation, Its authority and Its organization. It's all a matter of deductive reasoning, correct interpretation and pure logic.
Christ for the world we sing,
The world to Christ we bring, with loving zeal,
The poor and them that mourn, the faint and overborne,
Sin sick and sorrow worn, whom Christ doth heal.
Christ for the world we sing,
The world to Christ we bring, with fervent prayer;
The wayward and the lost, by restless passions tossed,
Redeemed at countless cost, from dark despair.
Christ for the world we sing,
The world to Christ we bring, with one accord;
With us the work to share, with us reproach to dare,
With us the cross to bear, for Christ our Lord.
Christ for the world we sing,
The world to Christ we bring, with joyful song;
The newborn souls, whose days, reclaimed from error’s ways,
Inspired with hope and praise, to Christ belong.
http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/c/f/cftworld.htm
Much agree. Thanks.
Thanks.
Thank you for that post. It might well be perfect.
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