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California bishop responds to lay group (re Tridentine Mass)
Renew America ^ | September 14, 2006 | Matt C. Abbott

Posted on 09/15/2006 8:49:34 AM PDT by NYer

In the ongoing saga in the Diocese of Orange, Calif., Bishop Tod Brown has formally responded to the Catholic lay group Restore the Sacred. The text of the bishop's letter (dated September 6, 2006), which was sent to a member of Restore the Sacred, is as follows:



TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; General Discusssion; Ministry/Outreach; Prayer; Religion & Culture; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic
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To: vincentjay

"Pointing out the hairsplitting highlights the weakness of the rcd claim to being unified."

It is one of the great strengths of The Church that it doesn't require absolute agreement in every least thing by every Catholic.

John Paul II can mistakenly oppose our war in Iraq, while I support it, and neither of us has to be thrown out of The Church.

The only people within the Roman Catholic Church that I hear prattling about being "unified" are the modernist swine that Pope Saint Pius X called "enemies of The Church."


61 posted on 09/15/2006 12:47:53 PM PDT by dsc
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To: Dominick
Staging protests was a pretty counter-productive act

But it is so much more satisfying to the flesh than submission to legitimate authority and pray.

When Padre Pio was silenced by legitimate authority of his bishop, he was publicly silent and he prayed. Now the entire Church acknowledges his sanctity.

I am in no way comparing myself to Padre Pio, however I kneel on the floor when kneelers are not provided, I determine where the Blessed Sacrament is reserved and genuflect in that direction, I genuflect in line when going to receiving communion, I continue to pray.

I don't yell, I don't scream, besides one meeting with the Pastor to ask for kneelers I don't protest, I pray. I hope to see changes in the Church in my lifetime, however if I do not I know my prayers and my submission will have effect. An encouraging note is that more than 15 people knelt, at the Student Center, two Sundays ago.
62 posted on 09/15/2006 12:55:48 PM PDT by Talking_Mouse (wahhabi delenda est)
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To: vincentjay

There's no such thing as a Roman Catholic denomination. There's Catholicism and heretics. You must have fallen into the latter category.


63 posted on 09/15/2006 1:00:49 PM PDT by WriteOn (Truth)
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To: vincentjay
Even your teaching "authorities" acknowledge that there are non-catholic Christians, thus roman catholicism does not encompass the entire church. As a subset of the church (a very large subset) it is a denomination (a very large denomination). The church as a whole body of believers encompasses more than roman catholicism.

Denominationalism started with the Protestants, not the Catholic Church. We are not a denomination.

"The term "denomination" in general refers to anything distinguished by a name. In religious contexts the designation has traditionally applied both to broad movements within Protestantism, such as Baptists and Methodists, and also to the numerous independent branches of such movements that have developed over the years primarily because of geographical expansion and theological controversy.

Denominationalism is a comparatively recent phenomenon. The theological distinction between the church visible and invisible, made by Wycliffe and Hus and elaborated by the Protestant Reformers, underlies the practice and defense of denominationalism that emerged among seventeenth century English Puritans, who agreed on most things but not on the crucial issue of how the church should be organized. The eighteenth century revivals associated with Wesley and Whitefield greatly encouraged the practice, especially in America, where it became dominant.

Denominationalism

64 posted on 09/15/2006 1:27:56 PM PDT by FJ290
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To: vincentjay

Dear vincentjay,

We acknowledge the existence of non-Catholic Christians. However, we see that non-Catholic Christians are more precisely Christians with profoundly broken communion with their real spiritual home, the Catholic Church.

Furthermore, we don't recognize Christian "denominations" as real churches or parts of the real Church. The Catholic Church teaches that human institutions such as the Church of England, or the Lutheran Church are "ecclesial assemblies," but not properly called particular churches of the one Universal Church.

We recognize the Orthodox Churches as particular churches of the one Universal Church, but in schism from Her.

Thus, the Catholic Church is not a "denomination," but rather the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church founded by Jesus.


sitetest


65 posted on 09/15/2006 2:04:09 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: murphE; HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity

Personally, I think "twit" is better in the case of Bp. Tod.

But "smarmy twit" is good, too...


66 posted on 09/15/2006 2:06:15 PM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, Tomas Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: Kolokotronis

Yes, communion was received kneeling at the Tridentine.

Point is that the kneeling tradition is customary (at least in the US, and to my knowledge parts of Germany) going back around 100 years.

That makes it an 'immemorial custom,' (100 years) and not subject to manipulation by snot-nosed Committee academics.


67 posted on 09/15/2006 2:08:50 PM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, Tomas Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: NYer; BlackElk

There were a couple of greasy little lies in Brown's letter. See:

http://dad29.blogspot.com/2006/09/anent-cuf-advice.html

and the post immediately preceding, which by coincidence surrounds the same issues:

http://dad29.blogspot.com/2006/09/some-questions-for-cufs-suprenant.html


68 posted on 09/15/2006 2:14:12 PM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, Tomas Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: wideawake

Reminds me of Longstreet's comment about the Confederacy, where the governors sometimes refused to supply the army that was keeping it alive: Died of a theory.


69 posted on 09/15/2006 2:18:00 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: BlackElk

May be a while.

Looks like B-16's going to knock off the Mohammedan heresy before he moves in on twits like Brown.


70 posted on 09/15/2006 2:18:22 PM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, Tomas Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: Talking_Mouse

Prayer works.

Prayer and pointing a gun at the offender works faster.


71 posted on 09/15/2006 2:19:46 PM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, Tomas Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity

Luckily, the pope agrees with you. Precisely: this is the kind of clericalism that leads the Church toward ruin.


72 posted on 09/15/2006 2:19:48 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: murphE

So far no one has related a very important point made by the Holy See regarding kneeling to receive Holy Communion. If people want to know more, go to http://www.adoremus.org/Notitiae-kneeling.html. You will find that the United States Bishops were given permission to demand standing for Holy Communion with the proviso that no one receiving It kneeling was to be denied, nor were they to be made to feel that he is being disobedient. Bishop Brown is indeed smarmy in the extreme.


73 posted on 09/15/2006 2:21:55 PM PDT by tewter
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To: Kolokotronis

I respect the East in terms of liturgy, but as being someone who was brought up in a Western cultural context, I strongly prefer the Wests liturgical historty, and as much as Eastren Rite Catholics were abused by having Latinizations forced on them before Vatican II, many Catholics like me are sick of the Eastren influences such as standing for communion and the attempt to eliminate all kneeling during mass being forced on us.


74 posted on 09/15/2006 2:24:20 PM PDT by RFT1
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To: Kolokotronis


People kept the sacrament reserved in their home because the church at the time was underground, and in an emergency situation. Even then, institued acolytes, who were all males in a minor clearical state, were the only non ordained allowed to distribute the eucharist, and again, even then, only in emergency situations.


75 posted on 09/15/2006 2:27:06 PM PDT by RFT1
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To: NYer
The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops has determined that in the United States, Holy Communion is received standing and that the appropriate sign of respect is a bow of the head before the Sacrament. The Diocese of Orange is obliged to observe this norm.

Absolute horse sh!t!!

The Diocese of Orange is under no obligation to observe any sort of directive from USCCB. You are the ordinary of this diocese and you are responsible for its proper liturgical norms, not a committee of bureaucrats at USCCB.

I stopped reading right there but the rest of the letter probably runs along similar lines.

76 posted on 09/15/2006 2:33:02 PM PDT by marshmallow
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To: ninenot

Kneeling for communion in the West goes back in some cases before 1000AD. It was the common posture in the West by the 1200s, and it still is the common posture, ironically I may add, for Lurtherans and Episcopalins.


77 posted on 09/15/2006 2:35:49 PM PDT by RFT1
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To: NYer
"This is where there should be some uniformity in our life as Catholics. Although there is room for variety in music, preaching and the way these rights are celebrated, these all must adhere to the backbone of liturgical legislation set down by the church."

Did he really spell it that way?

78 posted on 09/15/2006 2:43:12 PM PDT by muir_redwoods (Free Sirhan Sirhan, after all, the bastard who killed Mary Jo Kopechne is walking around free)
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To: Petrosius

When I first started dating my wife, I could not understand why we (the LCMS) had altar rails and knelt for receiving Communion, but her parish didn't.

Still seems odd to me.


79 posted on 09/15/2006 2:47:09 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: vincentjay

My 16 year old daughter escaped from her father and me and led a harrowing life on the streets.

Sometimes we deceive ourselves!


80 posted on 09/15/2006 3:50:06 PM PDT by mckenzie7
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