Long Journey to Rome (Former Southern Baptist Pastor Now a Traveling Crusader for Catholic Church)

Once a Southern Baptist pastor, Michael Cumbie converted to Catholicism in 2001 and has since been traveling far from his hometown near Pensacola, Florida, to preach his new faith to the nation. At Saint Therese Catholic Church in San Diego for a "renewal mission" this April, he spent three evenings speaking about his conversion, Catholic worship, and the Eucharist. About 200 hundred came to listen the last evening's talk. While he gathered his materials after his energetic presentation, I asked him some questions on the same topics.

Can you say something about the experience of the Holy Spirit in your life that put you on the path to Catholicism?

"Most Catholics and Protestants are familiar with the charismatic renewal, that came to all Christianity in the '70s. It was a big renewing of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Holy Spirit, a little different from Pentecostalism, which started in the early 1900s. That movement of the Holy Spirit seemed to be of the less educated and maybe poorer people. Many folks would never have gone to one of those kinds of gatherings of people speaking in tongues and prophesying. But then in the '70s that experience of Pentecost which the Catholic Church celebrates every year, started to invade those mainline churches of educated people. Intellectual Christians started having the same experience that the Pentecostals did. I was swept up in that movement. But also, as a Southern Baptist, we did not believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, that they still operated today or were meant for today. But when I was in college I got around a group of young people that just had such a powerful presence of Christ in their lives. I'd never seen that. All Christians I knew up to that time were pretty much all the same -- I use the little analogy all the time, 'you don't know there are any hundred watt light bulbs if you're always around forty watt light bulbs.' So I got around all these hundred watt light bulbs and I noticed how much brighter their light was, if I can say it that way, and it just really drove me crazy. After about three months I said to these folks, 'You know, you guys have something I don't have. You're Christians, I'm a Christian, I believe that, but you've got some secret. I sense this powerful presence, and besides that you have such understanding of the Bible even though you've never been to Bible college,' and they said, 'Michael, it's the Holy Spirit'. Then they used the term 'baptism of the Holy Spirit' and I'd never heard of that, and to make a long story short we went through hours and hours of theological discussion. Because it was against my training and teaching as a Southern Baptist, they had a lot to overcome to try to convince me that this was a Biblical, Scriptural schism. But once they did, and I prayed and had the experience, it changed everything for me. The major thing it did, which began my conversion to Catholicism, was that it put a crack in my foundation that my denomination knew everything.

"Never at that point did I think about Catholicism, although the very first thing that happened to me that was unusual other than this gift of tongues, was that I drove past a Catholic Church and for the first time, I felt drawn to go in there and pray. Now I was raised so anti-Catholic -- we were told, don't you ever go inside a Catholic church. If you go into one, you can't get out. We laugh about it now, but we were deathly afraid of Catholicism. We thought it was from Satan and was deceiving millions of people, full of man-made rituals, because it was so different from our form of Christianity of preaching and singing and evangelizing. But I went into that Catholic Church, I spent four hours in that old, traditional, beautiful church. The pillars of marble, high altar rails, canvas paintings, stained glass windows -- it arrested me. I could not imagine what the people who went there did. I thought, with a building that looks like this, what do you do when you come here? I noticed the pulpit was not front-and-center like it always was at our churches where the emphasis is on hearing sermons and preaching. That experience marked me -- it did something to me that I've never gotten over. It began my conversion to the Catholic Church, because it caused such curiosity in me. I went home and I began to read, and every time we'd pass one of those churches, for the next ten years, I'd get my whole family out of the car and make them go inside and look at that church, and the kids loved it. They loved the holy water (they didn't know what it was for), and they loved the statues. I'd read them the little plaques beneath the saint statues which told the saint's story. I couldn't figure out at the time why God kept pulling me into those beautiful old churches to pray, when I was so anti-Catholic in my theology."

Would you say that exposure to the aesthetic appeal of traditional Catholic churches was your entry into sacramental theology?

"Well, yes, although it took fifteen years. What happened was, I went to a conference where a pastor stood up and said to us, 'The church in America is irrelevant.' (Now when he said 'church' he meant all the Protestants). He said, 'It's not having any impact on society'. I knew he was right, I knew something had been wrong for a long time. We preached our hearts out, but it wasn't changing the nation. It wasn't causing men who had no use for God to even consider God. So it really made me start to examine what we were preaching and what was our method of getting people converted -- was our method of salvation the right way? So this little preacher got up and said, 'The church is irrelevant,' and then said, 'we believe the cure for the ills of our society is for us evangelical Protestant pastors to return to ancient liturgy and sacramental theology.' I had no idea what he was talking about. I thought, 'We have to do what?'

"My friend next to me said, 'Oh, no, he's talking about C-C-C-Catholicism.' That pastor proceeded to spend the next hour and fifteen minutes telling us why he said what he said, and it so disturbed me, because I knew in my heart he was on to something true, but my head was giving me fits. It went against everything I believed. So we gave ourselves the next two years just to study and read the early Church fathers. We realized how much we had lost in the Reformation, and made a vow to try to take all our congregations and restore everything that was lost. No small task. We started to call ourselves 'ancient historical Christians', which of course is nothing other than Catholic. After trying many other alternatives (such as the Episcopal church) my wife Sherry and I decided to become Catholic. We needed a pope -- to be in line with Peter."

In a post-Vatican II climate, in which the word "renewal" can equate to a watering down of the faith, what does the word mean to you?

"Well, the first thing that comes to mind is, 'What needs to be renewed?' and 'Why does anybody need renewal?' When I was a Protestant we used the word 'revival'. We believed we needed reviving because we've gone cold and indifferent and spiritually dead, and at one time the faith was on fire and vibrant and alive. So that's what renewal and revival means to me. The Scriptures say, 'Can these dry bones live again,' and give examples of breathing on something that's become a dead formalistic mental exercise and is not alive spiritually anymore."

Do you think this kind of renewal is at the heart of what was called for by Vatican II?

"I think the Vatican Council was about this renewal. Of course I'm a new kid on the block, and have heard a lot of controversy about the second Vatican Council, and I've seen some great things that have come supposedly as a result of it, and some not so great things. But what I find out about those not so great things is that those were things that were never intended by the Council anyway. So a misapplication and a misinterpretation have happened. I will go on record saying I believe with all my heart that the Second Vatican Council is the voice of God to the Church. It is the magisterium. There's no arguing with that. How it's implemented though -- people get involved, men get involved.... Without being uncharitable, I can say some men with their own agendas came out of the council and tried to use the phrase, 'in the spirit of the second Vatican Council ... we have to change, etc, etc.... ' I think the Council was God's way of trying to bring renewal to the Church in the twenty-first century. I have to say, all the things I read about Catholicism -- the rubrics of the mass, the silence of the sacred space, the kneelers and the formality of dress -- it was all so refreshing to me. But when I actually saw the typical Catholic churches, it was very different. If I had walked into a modern, updated, liberal Catholic parish I would never have become Catholic. Because it's so much like the Protestant environment that I left. I was looking for structure, and respect for the sacred, and love for the holy, and we didn't have it. And many parishes, I'm afraid, have become just like that "in the spirit of Vatican II" of making the church a "gathering space" -- even though it is still sacred space we don't act like it is. So I think some things have been very detrimental to the faith and have even caused tens of thousands of Catholics to walk out and lose their faith. And again, that's not the Council's fault but just the statistics. Of the thirty-three percent of Catholics who still attend mass regularly, sixty-six percent no longer believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. This is the crisis in the church, not pedophilia. This loss of faith in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist -- that's the very doctrine that changed my whole life and caused my conversion, because all the Church's teachings flow from that doctrine."

Do you see the same need for a return to sacramental theology that you saw in the Protestant congregations?

"Absolutely. Dr. (Scott) Hahn says, 'We must evangelize the baptized first.' Evangelization has to start among our own people. And it's happening. There were about two hundred Protestant pastors that came into the Church the year I converted, and I heard two weeks ago that there are four hundred and seventy-nine Protestant pastors coming into the Church this year. So what's the Lord up to? He loves the Church. It's not going to die or fall apart. He promised that, but it may go through some real reviving and renewing and changing, and God is bringing hundreds of Protestant pastors, the leaders of Protestant Christianity, back home, to the roots of their own faith even as Christians. So it looks like the Holy Spirit is up to something."

Do you think there's a need to be especially careful when you are trying to make Catholic truths digestible to the average layperson?

"Yes, you have to be very careful. Most of us -- we converted pastors -- are not theologians, we're not experts, we learned just enough about the Church to know it was the truth. And what most of us try to share are just the things we know that changed our lives. There are many topics I will not touch. I cannot teach on a particular doctrine if I'm not educated in it. The things that I know according to Scripture, and that we can prove historically about the Church being the Church that Jesus started, I have no problem preaching up a storm on those kinds of things. But every teacher, apologist, or catechist has to be very careful. You try to make the faith as understandable as you can while avoiding any danger of heresy."

Do you feel that your call is to evangelize to the baptized first by sharing your story?

"By sharing my story, yes, but more importantly through apologetics. Why do we believe what we believe? You must be able to give an answer to anyone that asks you. Saint Peter said, 'You must be able at all times to give a reason for the hope that lies in you.' So first the baptized must be taught their own faith, and then taught how to answer criticisms of that faith from non-Catholic Christians who are very misinformed about the faith just like I was. And a kind answer turns away wrath -- you've got to be filled with love and with charity, but you have to know the faith. When it comes to those who have no faith at all, you need to ask yourself, 'Do I know how to share the love of Christ with them? Can I convince them of their need for God and salvation?' Can you love them into the Kingdom? God does the converting, we don't convert anybody. Our job is to be the best Catholics we can be. My job is not to tell you what to believe but to explain the faith. Then you must decide what you believe."

Michael Cumbie and a partner of his came to my parish last year. He was promoting his renewal mission. (The Pastor, born in Ireland, is very conservative, yet he's very into the Renewal movement.)

I admit, as a cradle Catholic, I found it humorous to hear the converted preaching to us! He didn't sell me but I'm more of a sedate worshiper and prefer more traditional (well, traditional N.O.!) Masses more to my liking.

>>Should we balance this thread with the testimonies of converted priests?<<

Good point... But having read this thread, I don't think there would be much tolerance for it...

Whenever I read a story like this it reminds me NEVER to put my trust in what anyone says... Even if they're a "Southern Baptist Pastor"... Because you never know for sure what they believe...

There are so many fundamental differences between the Southern Baptists and the RCC that one would have to wonder which came first... Rejection of Biblical theology or acceptance of RCC doctrine... I would suspect the former rather than the latter...

There are so many fundamental differences between the Southern Baptists and the RCC that one would have to wonder which came first... Rejection of Biblical theology or acceptance of RCC doctrine.

Um, I think he concluded that "Biblical theology" and "RCC doctrine" were one and the same thing.

Funny how y'all always say you're in favor of people reading the Bible for themselves, but when they start drawing Catholic conclusions from what they read, well, we can't be having any of that, can we ... ??

>>Funny how y'all always say you're in favor of people reading the Bible for themselves, but when they start drawing Catholic conclusions from what they read, well, we can't be having any of that, can we ... ??<<

I guess you're claiming that Biblical theology and RCC doctrine is the same thing? OK... Where in the Bible does it say that Mary is a mediator, or intercessor? According to the Bible there is only one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.

Verse Search Results (The Douay-Rheims Bible)

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God: and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:

Before attacking the personal faith of Mr. Cumbie or any other Catholics (especially converts to Catholicism), I would ask that you listen to his testimony to understand the reasons why he converted to what he (and I) believe to be the fullness of Biblical Faith, not the rejection of it.

Here is a link to the show (from EWTN's podcasting webpage):
http://download.rbn.com/ewtn/download/jh.mp3

(Please note that EWTN only posts shows for one week on their site, so if you come back to this link next week it will be a different episode.)

Insofar as the Catholic explanation of 1 Timothy 2:5, I'm sure that it can be found on several threads here on FR, as well as on several Catholic apologetics websites such as Catholic Answers. Here is one explanation in an article from This Rock magazine.

>>Before attacking the personal faith of Mr. Cumbie or any other Catholics .... <<

I appreciate the fact that you did not accuse me of attacking Mr. Cumbie personally... However, I do not apologize for "attacking" his beliefs or any others that hold to the same anti-Biblical theology that he does...

It doesn't matter what Mr. Cumbie's personal reasons were for joining the RCC... What he says he believes now is a matter of public record... And is fair game.. If the RCC want to push his "conversion" as a positive thing.. Then there shouldn't be any objection to another point of view.

However, I do not apologize for "attacking" his beliefs or any others that hold to the same anti-Biblical theology that he does...

On what grounds can you determine what is "anti-Biblical" aside from those that exist based on your own personal interpretation of the Bible? How can you say that your interpretation (which I would assume agrees with the interpretation of the pastor of your Church), is any better or worse than Mr. Cumbie's (which happens to agree with the Catholic Church)?

Feel free to continue to discuss, but I ask you for the sake of truth to listen to his testimony as well, even though you will probably disagree.

As for me, I'm going to sleep; it's past 1 a.m. here on the East Coast.

I found it humorous to hear the converted preaching to us! He didn't sell me but I'm more of a sedate worshiper and prefer more traditional (well, traditional N.O.!) Masses more to my liking.

Mr. Cumbie commented on how much he enjoys meeting cradle catholics with deep seated devotion to the liturgy.

Like so many other converts - Michael Cumbie is driven to 'wake up' the sleeping catholics and set their hearts on fire with understanding and love for the Mass. It was a wonderful interview and I hope you have the opportunity to watch it.

What order was this priest?

I don't know; does it make a difference?

But at the consecration I was in tears, because I could feel the "real presence" of Christ in the church.

It's an awesome feeling, humbling yet earth shattering. One saint was given the grace to 'see' the angels present during the Consecration. Wish I could remember her name. Interestingly enough, one of the pre-communion hymns we chant says: "Hosts of heaven, stand with us at the altar". Truly, heaven on earth.

" can say some men with their own agendas came out of the council and tried to use the phrase, 'in the spirit of the second Vatican Council ... we have to change, etc, etc.... ' I think the Council was God's way of trying to bring renewal to the Church in the twenty-first century. I have to say, all the things I read about Catholicism -- the rubrics of the mass, the silence of the sacred space, the kneelers and the formality of dress -- it was all so refreshing to me. But when I actually saw the typical Catholic churches, it was very different. If I had walked into a modern, updated, liberal Catholic parish I would never have become Catholic. Because it's so much like the Protestant environment that I left. I was looking for structure, and respect for the sacred, and love for the holy, and we didn't have it. And many parishes, I'm afraid, have become just like that "in the spirit of Vatican II" of making the church a "gathering space" -- even though it is still sacred space we don't act like it is. So I think some things have been very detrimental to the faith and have even caused tens of thousands of Catholics to walk out and lose their faith. And again, that's not the Council's fault but just the statistics. Of the thirty-three percent of Catholics who still attend mass regularly, sixty-six percent no longer believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. This is the crisis in the church, not pedophilia. This loss of faith in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.."

Ding, ding, ding! Especially what he said: "If I had walked into a modern, updated, liberal Catholic parish I would never have become Catholic" - in contrast to the beautiful Catholic parish he walked into with the altar rails, marble, etc. (something that looked like a church and not a gymnasium). In some respects, his story is like mine. NYer, thanks for posting this!

Where in the Bible does it say that Mary is a mediator

Apparently the Catholics haven't gone over the brink into total insanity just yet, the Catechism agrees with the Bible:

480 Jesus Christ is true God and true man, in the unity of his divine person; for this reason he is the one and only mediator between God and men.

"There are so many fundamental differences between the Southern Baptists and the RCC that one would have to wonder which came first... Rejection of Biblical theology or acceptance of RCC doctrine... I would suspect the former rather than the latter..."

Actually, it is more likely that he converted because he ACCEPTED "Biblical theology". The Bible itself explicitly teaches (St. Paul) that it itself is NOT the sole inspired Word of God (i.e. that "sola Scriptura" IS NOT BIBLICAL). Add to that the fact that for four hundred years after the death of Christ, there WAS no Bible.

What was rejected was "Reformation theology".

Last night, I turned on EWTN in time to catch most of The Journey Home.

Was this the broadcast from San Francisco?

Marcus was hosting the show, and he interviewed the President of the Chesterton Society, a Jewish convert, and a convert from a "Nazarene" church. The last story was sad, in that the former pastor's wife left him when he decided to convert. The three stories were beautiful.

Where in the Bible does it say that Mary is a mediator, or intercessor?

Where in the Bible does it say that all doctrine is in the Bible?

And for that matter, where is Luther's, "the Bible alone" theory in the Bible?

FWIW, the saints in heaven are mediators, at least according to the Bible.

Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Interesting that he says this, as my SBC pastor says the opposite. This is a good illustration of the significant variance you can get with baptist churches.

I did a search on 'speaking in tongues southern baptist' and read a couple of news stories on the proposed ban on 'private prayer language' for missionaries. That seems to be the most recent example of the variety of understanding about the manifestations of the Spirit within the SBC. The USA Today story from April seemed fairly even-handed, people on both sides were quoted.

Mr. Cumbie commented on how much he enjoys meeting cradle catholics

Yep. He said as much on the pulpit that day.

I don't disagree that there are many, many sleeping Catholics born into the faith. Urban parishes, like the one I grew up in, have been hit very hard by this despite the influx of Hispanic Catholics who attend mass at about the same percentage rate as other Catholics.

The working class Irish built the Churches they worshiped in and sent their kids to the parish schools that they also built. As well as supplied the labor of priests and nuns. Of course, that was when my own grandparents emmigrated in the early 1900's. Today's immigrant Catholics (except maybe the Polish) don't have the same fervor and sadly, neither do many of the native born Catholics.

I blame the government welfare mentality for this as well as the cynicism of the age. A powerful Church is a competitor to an ever power hungry government.

I don't know that Mr. Cumbie's charismatic evangelism will turn it around but I don't begrudge him for trying so hard.

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God: and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:

Perhaps you should consider the context of 1 Timothy 2:5 and read the preceding 4 verses that discount your particular interpretation...

"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour" 1 Tim 2:1-3

Clearly, Paul is not saying that Jesus is the ONLY intercessor. If you check more closely, Paul is refering to the fact that Jesus is God and Man, thus, making Him the "go-between" between God for our sake - since He IS both God and man. Paul is certainly not saying that Jesus is our only intercessor, as the verses above show.

By the way, can you point to me where it says in the Bible that I am saved by faith ALONE?

Regards

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