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To: DouglasKC

You wrote: "Although I personally believe him to be speaking of God, there is a variety of opinion on the subject."

Oh, please. Post the variety of opinion (from reputable scholars and commentators please).

"I don't have a problem at all with the the church of the living God being the pillar and ground of the truth."

Wow, you actually have no problem agreeing with the inspired word of God?

"What I don't believe is that the organization known as the Roman Catholic church is the church of the living God being spoken of."

Okay, that's a completely ahistorical view, but we'll put it aside for the moment. The point here is that St. Paul says that the Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth and you can barely bring yourself to believe it is true. That's a problem for anyone who claims to be a Christian.

"By definition, that's true. Anyone who has God's spirit is a member of his church and is led into the truth."

Your understanding of such things is incomplete to say the least. Protestants disagree on basic doctrines. ALL Protestants. Doesn't that imply that no Protestant, or at leats few Protestants, by your definition, could be a member of the Church or have God's spirit in them or have been led to the truth?


71 posted on 07/09/2006 6:09:02 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998
Oh, please. Post the variety of opinion (from reputable scholars and commentators please).

Notwithstanding your rather sarcastic objections, there is surely a diversity of opinion among scholars as to the meaning of the phrase.

From Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible:

The pillar and ground of the truth - Never was there a greater variety of opinions on any portion of the sacred Scripture than has been on this and the following verse. Commentators and critics have given senses and meanings till there is no meaning to be seen. It would be almost impossible, after reading all that has been said on this passage, for any man to make up his own mind. To what, or to whom, does the pillar and ground of the truth refer?
1. Some say to Timothy, who is called the pillar, etc., because left there to support and defend the truth of God against false doctrines and false teachers; and is so called for the same reason that Peter, James, and John, are said to be pillars, i.e. supporters of the truth of God. Gal_2:9.
2. Others suppose that the pillar and ground of the truth is spoken of God; and that ï̔ò åóôé, who is, should be supplied as referring immediately to Èåïò, God, just before. By this mode of interpretation the passage will read thus: That thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the Church of the living God, Who Is (ï̔ò åóôé) the pillar and ground of the truth. How God may be fitly termed the pillar and ground of truth, requires no explanation.
3. Others think that the words should be understood of the Church of the living God; and in this case the feminine relative ç̔ôéò åóôé, which is, must be repeated immediately after åêêëçóéá, the Church. The house of God is the Church of the living God; Which (Church) Is the pillar and ground of the truth. That is: The full revelation of GodÂ’s truth is in the Christian Church. The great doctrines of that Church are the truth without error, metaphor, or figure. Formerly the truth was but partially revealed, much of it being shadowed with types, ceremonies, and comparatively dark prophecies; but now all is plain, and the full revelation given; and the foundation on which this truth rests are the grand facts detailed in the Gospel, especially those which concern the incarnation, miracles, passion, death, and resurrection of Christ, and the mission of the Holy Spirit.
4. Lastly, others refer the whole to ôï ôçò åõóåâåéáò ìõóôçñéïí, the mystery of godliness; and translate the clause thus: The mystery of godliness is the pillar and ground of the truth; and, without controversy, a great thing. This gives a very good sense, but it is not much favored by the arrangement of the words in the original.

From Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible:

The pillar and ground of the truth - There has been no little diversity of opinion among critics whether this phrase is to be taken in connection with the preceding, meaning that “the church” is the pillar and ground of the truth; or whether it is to be taken in connection with what follows, meaning that the principal support of the truth was the doctrine there referred to - that God was manifest in the flesh. Bloomfield remarks on this: “It is surprising that any who have any knowledge or experience in Greek literature could tolerate so harsh a construction as that which arises from the latter method.” The more natural interpretation certainly is, to refer it to the former; and this is supported by the consideration that it would then fall in with the object of the apostle. His design here seems to be, to impress Timothy with a deep sense of the importance of correct conduct in relation to the church; of the responsibility of those who presided over it; and of the necessity of care and caution in the selection of proper officers.

From Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible:

the pillar and ground of the truth--evidently predicated of the Church, not of "the mystery of godliness" (an interpretation not started till the sixteenth century; so BENGEL); for after two weighty predicates, "pillar and ground," and these substantives, the third, a much weaker one, and that an adjective, "confessedly," or "without controversy great," would not come. "Pillar" is so used metaphorically of the three apostles on whom principally the Jewish Christian Church depended (Gal_2:9; compare Rev_3:12). The Church is "the pillar of the truth," as the continued existence (historically) of the truth rests on it; for it supports and preserves the word of truth. He who is of the truth belongs by the very fact to the Church. Christ is the alone ground of the truth in the highest sense (1Co_3:11). The apostles are foundations in a secondary sense (Eph_2:20; Rev_21:14). The Church rests on the truth as it is in Christ; not the truth on the Church. But the truth as it is in itself is to be distinguished from the truth as it is acknowledged in the world. In the former sense it needs no pillar, but supports itself; in the latter sense, it needs the Church as its pillar, that is, its supporter and preserver [BAUMGARTEN]. The importance of Timothy's commission is set forth by reminding him of the excellence of "the house" in which he serves; and this in opposition to the coming heresies which Paul presciently forewarns him of immediately after (1Ti_4:1). The Church is to be the stay of the truth and its conserver for the world, and God's instrument for securing its continuance on earth, in opposition to those heresies (Mat_16:18; Mat_28:20). The apostle does not recognize a Church which has not the truth, or has it only in part. Rome falsely claims the promise for herself. But it is not historical descent that constitutes a Church, but this only, to those heresies (Mat_16:18; Mat_28:20). The apostle does not recognize a Church which has not the intermediate; the "ground," or "basement" (similar to "foundation," 2Ti_2:19), the final support of the building [ALFORD]. It is no objection that, having called the Church before "the house of God," he now calls it the "pillar"; for the literal word "Church" immediately precedes the new metaphors: so the Church, or congregation of believers, which before was regarded as the habitation of God, is now, from a different point of view, regarded as the pillar upholding the truth.

72 posted on 07/09/2006 7:35:32 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: vladimir998
Okay, that's a completely ahistorical view, but we'll put it aside for the moment. The point here is that St. Paul says that the Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth and you can barely bring yourself to believe it is true. That's a problem for anyone who claims to be a Christian.

Not really. It matters very little as to whether or not God is the pillar or bulwark, or his church is. It's practically the same thing to those believe that God's church isn't an organization, like the Roman Catholic church, but instead is a called out body of believers whose members transcend manmade institutions.

Your understanding of such things is incomplete to say the least. Protestants disagree on basic doctrines. ALL Protestants. Doesn't that imply that no Protestant, or at leats few Protestants, by your definition, could be a member of the Church or have God's spirit in them or have been led to the truth?

I've told you, despite your attempt to label me as such, I'm not a protestant. I agree that protestanism in general is in confusion. but it's my belief that a great number of people will eventually be led to the truth. Most of this will occur during the great tribulation:

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

and later at the great white throne judgement:

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

73 posted on 07/09/2006 7:47:23 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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