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To: annalex; George W. Bush; P-Marlowe; Agrarian; Dr. Eckleburg; jo kus; HarleyD; Forest Keeper

"There is no such thing, and there is no scripture that says what your "church" imagines to be the case."

Now see, that's where your church is wrong, probably due to immature development of the subject. John 14:1-3 says Jesus has gone to prepare a place for us so we don't have to worry about being side tracked in any intermediate state. Paul says in 2 Cor. 5:8 that when we die (absent from the body) we will be present with the Lord, not waiting in some way station. Paul also says Phil. 1:21-23 the options are to live here for Christ or die and be with Him, not in some holding pen. Quite frankly, I believe my church's understanding of life after death is closer to the scripture than the loose translation and spiritualizing of the scriptures done at:
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html


8,637 posted on 06/14/2006 8:38:49 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan; annalex; George W. Bush; P-Marlowe; Agrarian; Dr. Eckleburg
Now see, that's where your church is wrong, probably due to immature development of the subject. John 14:1-3 says Jesus has gone to prepare a place for us so we don't have to worry about being side tracked in any intermediate state

What terrible logic. It doesn't follow that because Jesus is going to prepare a place in heaven, that He also is not going to prepare a place to cleanse those who require it before entering into heaven.

Paul says in 2 Cor. 5:8 that when we die (absent from the body) we will be present with the Lord, not waiting in some way station.

As usual, Protestants twist Scriptures to try to get it to say what they want... Paul doesn't say what you claim, he says he desires to be with Christ in heaven than here on earth!

"We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." 2 Cor 5:8

Paul also says Phil. 1:21-23 the options are to live here for Christ or die and be with Him, not in some holding pen.

Another misapplication of Scriptures. Paul is saying basically the same thing in 2 Cor 5. He'd rather be with Christ in heaven than here on earth in the flesh. But that speaks absolutely nothing about the existence or non-existence of Purgatory...

For to me to live [is] Christ, and to die [is] gain. But if I live in the flesh, this [is] the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better Phil 1:21-23

If this is how your "spirit" interprets Scriptures, I can see where the problems lie at your 'church'. Quite frankly, this says absolutely nothing about Purgatory's existence or non-existence. We go elsewhere to find its proof.

Regards

8,644 posted on 06/15/2006 5:28:37 AM PDT by jo kus (There is nothing colder than a Christian who doesn't care for the salvation of others - St.Crysostom)
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To: blue-duncan; George W. Bush; P-Marlowe; Agrarian; Dr. Eckleburg; jo kus; HarleyD; Forest Keeper
John 14:1-3 says Jesus has gone to prepare a place for us so we don't have to worry about being side tracked in any intermediate state.

John 14 in no way excludes various intermediate destinations, both in this life and after death. Note that Christ is referring to His second coming (verse 3), so John 14 is not referring to the Church Suffering (i.e. Purgatory) by definition.

Paul says in 2 Cor. 5:8 that when we die (absent from the body) we will be present with the Lord, not waiting in some way station.

This passage, unlike the preceding one from John, indeed refers to Particular Judgement (i.e. immediately after death). What does it say?

6 Therefore having always confidence, knowing that, while we are in the body, we are absent from the Lord. 7 (For we walk by faith, and not by sight.) 8 But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 And therefore we labour, whether absent or present, to please him. 10 For we must all be manifested before the judgement seat of Christ, that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he hath done, whether it be good or evil.
No way station is referred to directly, so your conclusion is incorrect. When a train leaves Boston for Philadelphia, one cannot conclude that New York does not exist because it is absent from the display. This is what is mentioned: that we "labor" both before and after death; and that every one receives in the measure of the things he is done good and bad. This indicates that souls undergo some kind of labor after death that corresponds to our works. This is another passage that is difficult to explain outside of the doctrine of Purgatory.

Paul also says Phil. 1:21-23 the options are to live here for Christ or die and be with Him, not in some holding pen.

Again, nothing excludes the "holding pen". St. Paul does not mention Hell either in that passage, -- would you conclude form it that Hell does not exist?

the loose translation and spiritualizing of the scriptures done at: http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

I don't know what you mean by "spiritualizing", but please tell me which translations used at that site are inaccurate in a way that misrepresents the true teaching regarding the progression of souls after death. If you mean that the translations are generally inaccurate but not in the sense that introduces a bias for purgatory, then I agree, of course. When in doubt, check the Greek original and the patristic understanding.

8,673 posted on 06/15/2006 11:18:33 AM PDT by annalex
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