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To: blue-duncan; annalex; George W. Bush; P-Marlowe; Agrarian; Dr. Eckleburg
Now see, that's where your church is wrong, probably due to immature development of the subject. John 14:1-3 says Jesus has gone to prepare a place for us so we don't have to worry about being side tracked in any intermediate state

What terrible logic. It doesn't follow that because Jesus is going to prepare a place in heaven, that He also is not going to prepare a place to cleanse those who require it before entering into heaven.

Paul says in 2 Cor. 5:8 that when we die (absent from the body) we will be present with the Lord, not waiting in some way station.

As usual, Protestants twist Scriptures to try to get it to say what they want... Paul doesn't say what you claim, he says he desires to be with Christ in heaven than here on earth!

"We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." 2 Cor 5:8

Paul also says Phil. 1:21-23 the options are to live here for Christ or die and be with Him, not in some holding pen.

Another misapplication of Scriptures. Paul is saying basically the same thing in 2 Cor 5. He'd rather be with Christ in heaven than here on earth in the flesh. But that speaks absolutely nothing about the existence or non-existence of Purgatory...

For to me to live [is] Christ, and to die [is] gain. But if I live in the flesh, this [is] the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better Phil 1:21-23

If this is how your "spirit" interprets Scriptures, I can see where the problems lie at your 'church'. Quite frankly, this says absolutely nothing about Purgatory's existence or non-existence. We go elsewhere to find its proof.

Regards

8,644 posted on 06/15/2006 5:28:37 AM PDT by jo kus (There is nothing colder than a Christian who doesn't care for the salvation of others - St.Crysostom)
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To: jo kus; blue-duncan; annalex; George W. Bush; P-Marlowe; Agrarian; Dr. Eckleburg
As usual, Protestants twist Scriptures to try to get it to say what they want...

And what the heck are you doing trying desperately to show the existence of a non-existent purgatory with non-existent scriptures to the point where you claim inane stuff like "souls in purgatory have no free will"? Where does that come from?

The literary gymnastics that you have to do to come up with some statement like that and defend it from scriptures is just exhausting to watch. Is the loss of free will in purgatory some kind of punishment?

jokus your problem is that you have no freedom to think for yourself. The church makes a pronouncement about what you are to believe and you then go through all kinds of scriptural gymnastics to prove it to us, who can plainly see that the doctrine espoused by the Catholic church is simply not scriptural at all. From praying to the dead, the bowing before statutes, from the physical (or accidental if your prefer) presence, to the rosary, to last rites, whatever, you get your marching orders from the Pope and then you twist the scriptures to make it seem scriptural to those who are too ignoraant to see what you are doing.

So don't make me laugh with your accusation that it is "Protestants as usual" who are twisting the scriptures to get what they want. It is Catholics who are in desperate need to find some scriptural basis for the unbiblical doctrines and practices that they believe. And it is Catholics who place the scriptures in a low position underneath the pronouncements of Popes and the traditions of men. So where the scripture clearly contradicts the declarations of the church, your obligation as a catholic is to follow the declarations of the church or be a heretic. And when the church later changes its mind, you are there with them. You've got no place else to go. Your loyalty is to those men who claim to hold the "keys" whether they do or not.

So don't try to accuse the Protestants on this forum of "twisting" the scripture to get what we want. Those you accuse hold the scriptures to a much higher standard than you. Your accusation is laughable.

8,646 posted on 06/15/2006 5:50:42 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (((172 * 3.141592653589793238462) / 180) * 10 = 30.0196631)
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