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To: blue-duncan; George W. Bush; P-Marlowe; Agrarian; Dr. Eckleburg; jo kus; HarleyD; Forest Keeper
John 14:1-3 says Jesus has gone to prepare a place for us so we don't have to worry about being side tracked in any intermediate state.

John 14 in no way excludes various intermediate destinations, both in this life and after death. Note that Christ is referring to His second coming (verse 3), so John 14 is not referring to the Church Suffering (i.e. Purgatory) by definition.

Paul says in 2 Cor. 5:8 that when we die (absent from the body) we will be present with the Lord, not waiting in some way station.

This passage, unlike the preceding one from John, indeed refers to Particular Judgement (i.e. immediately after death). What does it say?

6 Therefore having always confidence, knowing that, while we are in the body, we are absent from the Lord. 7 (For we walk by faith, and not by sight.) 8 But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 And therefore we labour, whether absent or present, to please him. 10 For we must all be manifested before the judgement seat of Christ, that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he hath done, whether it be good or evil.
No way station is referred to directly, so your conclusion is incorrect. When a train leaves Boston for Philadelphia, one cannot conclude that New York does not exist because it is absent from the display. This is what is mentioned: that we "labor" both before and after death; and that every one receives in the measure of the things he is done good and bad. This indicates that souls undergo some kind of labor after death that corresponds to our works. This is another passage that is difficult to explain outside of the doctrine of Purgatory.

Paul also says Phil. 1:21-23 the options are to live here for Christ or die and be with Him, not in some holding pen.

Again, nothing excludes the "holding pen". St. Paul does not mention Hell either in that passage, -- would you conclude form it that Hell does not exist?

the loose translation and spiritualizing of the scriptures done at: http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

I don't know what you mean by "spiritualizing", but please tell me which translations used at that site are inaccurate in a way that misrepresents the true teaching regarding the progression of souls after death. If you mean that the translations are generally inaccurate but not in the sense that introduces a bias for purgatory, then I agree, of course. When in doubt, check the Greek original and the patristic understanding.

8,673 posted on 06/15/2006 11:18:33 AM PDT by annalex
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To: annalex; George W. Bush; P-Marlowe; Agrarian; Dr. Eckleburg; jo kus; HarleyD; Forest Keeper


Purgatory is a man made construct built on false premises in order to keep man spiritually enslaved. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that purgatory is a place of intolerable suffering and agony. Cardinal Bellarmine said “the pains of purgatory are very severe, surpassing any endured in this life.” Death is not the disciple of the Risen Christ joyfully going home to be with his Savior but the fearful soul going to a place of unspeakable horror and suffering. This suffering is supposed to make satisfaction for the unrepentant guilt. Here they suffer the pain and anguish resulting from the fact that they are excluded from the presence of the Lord and endure the “punishment of the senses”, that is, suffers positive pains which afflict the soul. The duration as well as the intensity of the suffering varies according to the degree of purification still needed

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that this suffering can be shortened and alleviated by the prayers and good works of the faithful on earth and especially the sacrifice of the mass. The Pope is supposed to have the jurisdiction over purgatory. It is his peculiar prerogative to grant indulgences lightening the suffering or even terminating them.

The doctrine of purgatory offers the false hope that man has a chance to be saved after death.

It rests on the false doctrine that justification is progressive.
1. Man is justified only in such measure as he is sanctified,
2. Justification is a matter of degrees, so the Council of Trent declared it to be,
3. Since justification is a continuous process, the redeeming death of Christ, on which it depends, must be a continuous process also; hence its prolonged reiteration in the sacrifice by the Mass,
4. Since sanctification is obviously never completed in this life, no man ever dies completely justified; hence the doctrine of purgatory.

Justification is instantaneous, complete, and final,
1. Instantaneous, since otherwise there would be an interval during which the soul was neither approved nor condemned by God (Matt. 6:24),
2. Complete, since the soul, united to Christ by faith, becomes partaker of his complete satisfaction to the demands of the law (Col. 2:9, 10),
3. Final, since the union with Christ is indissoluble (John 10:28-29).


It rests on the false premises of,
1. Man must add something to the work of Christ,
2. That the “good” works of man are meritorious in the strict sense of the word,
3. That man can perform work in excess of the command to do his duty,
4. The Roman Catholic Church’s power of the “keys” is absolute in a judicial sense.

We can do nothing beyond what we are called to do that merits anything. It is our duty to do “good” works so how can anything we do redound to the benefit of anyone else except the recipient of the work? Luke 17:7-10, 7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.


It rests on false interpretation of scripture. It somehow reads into the mourning for Abraham, Moses, Saul and Abner, prayers to get them out of purgatory when the clear reading is that people were mourning (fasting being a part of it) for the loss of someone important. “The sting of death is sin”. The use of 2 Macc. 12:43-45 is laughable. It flies in the face of Roman Catholic doctrine. Judas Maccabeas is praying for soldiers who were killed because they were idol worshippers. Idolatry was a capital crime in Israel and there was no salvation for one caught worshipping idols. It is a mortal sin in Roman Catholicism. How then can the soldiers be in purgatory which is the place for “believers” to be purified, and how cans any prayer or “good” works save them? The use of Luke 23:43 to somehow make paradise, purgatory is shown to be false by 2 Cor. 12:4 where Paul says he was caught up into the same place and saw wonderful sights too glorious to mention. He did not say he saw intolerable suffering, in fact nowhere in the scriptures is there mentioned a place where believers go after death where they are exposed to intolerable suffering out side the presence of God who has said He would never leave us or forsake us.

Luke 16:19-31, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is used to somehow show that the rich man is in purgatory. What is missing in this fantasy are the words, “And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.” The rich man had not changed at all; he was still the same self absorbed, self important man in hell as he was on earth, ordering around one he thought to be his servant. He was fixed in his sin and was burning in hell. To try to read compassion in this is rank eisogesis. The deconstruction of Matt. 5:26, 18:34, Luke 12:58-59 to read that God is the judge and Satan is the adversary is just foolishness. This was part of the Sermon on the Mount spoken to simple folk who would understand exactly what Jesus was teaching, “if at all possible live at peace with all men”, not some esoteric teaching of a place of intolerable suffering and agony that could never be plainly spoken of.

When we die we (believers) are present with the Lord (Phil. 1:23, Luke 23:43, John 14:3, Matt. 28:20, 1 Thess 5:10. 2 Cor. 5:6-9 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Believers will not suffer the wrath of God because of sin. John 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 3:36, 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

A Puritan writer wrote, “It is not the quantity of thy faith that shall save thee. A drop of water is as true water as the whole ocean. So a little faith is as true as the greatest. It is not the measure of thy faith that saves thee, - it is the blood that it grips to that saves thee”.







8,801 posted on 06/17/2006 7:40:16 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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